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#85 *tintjam65 *

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  11 June 2010 - 03:43 PM

levels 1-8 the second is an "All Glass" lay up

If this indeed all glass a safety film of any thickness can serve as a spall shield when installed to the cabin side. :rollin


A "Spall Shield" offers NO ballistic protection and is only used to keep the glass from being a secondary projectile or to keep the sharp glass fragments from doing and damage to the vehicle occupants,if you are talking about automotive use

No confusion here Bulldog.

I was plugging films attributes as a spall shield for bullet-proof glass that has glass on the cabin side surface as opposed to polycarbonate. That really is all safety film is designed for, holding glass fragments in place. :dunno
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#86 Bulldog Direct

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  11 June 2010 - 06:09 PM

levels 1-8 the second is an "All Glass" lay up

If this indeed all glass a safety film of any thickness can serve as a spall shield when installed to the cabin side. :rollin


A "Spall Shield" offers NO ballistic protection and is only used to keep the glass from being a secondary projectile or to keep the sharp glass fragments from doing and damage to the vehicle occupants,if you are talking about automotive use

No confusion here Bulldog.

I was plugging films attributes as a spall shield for bullet-proof glass that has glass on the cabin side surface as opposed to polycarbonate. That really is all safety film is designed for, holding glass fragments in place. :dunno


Hi tintjam65 thanks for the clarification on the use of "Film" as a Spall Shield. Our "All Glass" Bullet Resistant Glass is designed as a "Low Spall" system and it's use would be for applications where the end use customer needs to have glass on both sides , the strike face and the protected side for cleaning and clarity issues, as we know over time a "Film" will scratch and fog up, or delaminate. If we need a "No-Spall" application the last layer of glass on the protected side would be a minimum of 1/8" polycarbonate and a thin film of DuPont's Spall Shield. Again this whole lay up would be manufactured under heat and pressure of an autoclave. "Film" is not used in the manufacturer of Bullet Resistant Glass, as it does not have the high bonding strength or permanence of other products.

I agree that your "Safety Film" does have a wide variety of uses such as office -home window applications for protection from hurricane- forced entry and low velocity fragmentation applications.
:err
Thanks again for the clarification BD.
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#87 TexasBob

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  20 July 2010 - 06:36 PM

Hello all, TexasBob here. I have been away for awhile ..... This is way too funny............! Where have all you amateur bulletproof film guys gone?

Back in June Customtinting and bulldog ask for test reports from all of you who make these claims about how your "Film" is bullet resistant and of course no one has responded....go figure. Could it be that you can't back up your statements?



Keep those bullets flying TBob
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#88 Customtinting

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  20 July 2010 - 09:12 PM

Hello all, TexasBob here. I have been away for awhile ..... This is way too funny............! Where have all you amateur bulletproof film guys gone?

Back in June Customtinting and bulldog ask for test reports from all of you who make these claims about how your "Film" is bullet resistant and of course no one has responded....go figure. Could it be that you can't back up your statements?



Keep those bullets flying TBob


Thats because they have no legitimate testing. Only snake oil salesman pics. Proof is in the pudding...or the test data!!!!
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#89 HighLinePC

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  21 July 2010 - 06:14 PM

Most bullet resistant laminates are constructed from three types of material. The first material is something that absorbs the energy of the projectile. For low calibre defense, this material can be cell cast acrylic (usually 1.25" or more thick), for higher calibre and military applications it is more usually glass. When the glass breaks it absorbs the energy of the projectile. Often the strike face uses hardened glass to break up the projectile before it hits secondary layers of glass. The second type of material is usually a polycarbonate or similar to act as a spall shield. The spall shield is used to prevent fragments of glass injuring personnel behind the transparent armor - it really doesn't matter if you are hit by the projectile or the glass, they can both injure or kill. Polycarbonate works because it is virtually unbreakable and flexible (unlike acrylic) and therefore retains the fragments. For VIP and diplomatic protection cars the spall shield layer is usually 3mm or 1/8" thick. For military applications we have supplied 6mm and even 9mm polycarbonate. The type of Polycarbonate is also critical, most commodity Polycarbonate performs extremely poorly. There is a viewpoint that two 3mm layers actually act as a better spall shield than one 6mm layer. The third type of material in the laminate is in effect an adhesive between the glass and polycarbonate, or the glass and glass layers. Materials such as TPU are used for this adhesive. The TPU also is used to protect the laminate from the different expansion rates of Polycarbonate and Glass. The laminates are produced in an autoclave, often at 250 F for 8 hours.

The thickness of the glass laminate and the polycarbonate in the laminate depend on the size of the projectile and the velocity of the projectile. At HighLine Polycarbonate we typically recommend 3mm Polycarbonate for low end threats. For high end military applications the structure of the laminates are often confidential or classified.

In theory a film would act as a spall shield for low calibre, low velocity projectiles. For example a glass window with a laminated PC film would prevent fragments of glass from hitting occupants if a rock was thrown at the window. For a high velocity NATO round I would not want to use a film as a spall shield layer.

We have just published a blog post on the different types of transparent armor at http://www.highlinepc.blogspot.com if you are interested.
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#90 Bulldog Direct

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  02 August 2010 - 08:37 PM

Most bullet resistant laminates are constructed from three types of material. The first material is something that absorbs the energy of the projectile. For low calibre defense, this material can be cell cast acrylic (usually 1.25" or more thick), for higher calibre and military applications it is more usually glass. When the glass breaks it absorbs the energy of the projectile. Often the strike face uses hardened glass to break up the projectile before it hits secondary layers of glass. The second type of material is usually a polycarbonate or similar to act as a spall shield. The spall shield is used to prevent fragments of glass injuring personnel behind the transparent armor - it really doesn't matter if you are hit by the projectile or the glass, they can both injure or kill. Polycarbonate works because it is virtually unbreakable and flexible (unlike acrylic) and therefore retains the fragments. For VIP and diplomatic protection cars the spall shield layer is usually 3mm or 1/8" thick. For military applications we have supplied 6mm and even 9mm polycarbonate. The type of Polycarbonate is also critical, most commodity Polycarbonate performs extremely poorly. There is a viewpoint that two 3mm layers actually act as a better spall shield than one 6mm layer. The third type of material in the laminate is in effect an adhesive between the glass and polycarbonate, or the glass and glass layers. Materials such as TPU are used for this adhesive. The TPU also is used to protect the laminate from the different expansion rates of Polycarbonate and Glass. The laminates are produced in an autoclave, often at 250 F for 8 hours.

The thickness of the glass laminate and the polycarbonate in the laminate depend on the size of the projectile and the velocity of the projectile. At HighLine Polycarbonate we typically recommend 3mm Polycarbonate for low end threats. For high end military applications the structure of the laminates are often confidential or classified.

In theory a film would act as a spall shield for low calibre, low velocity projectiles. For example a glass window with a laminated PC film would prevent fragments of glass from hitting occupants if a rock was thrown at the window. For a high velocity NATO round I would not want to use a film as a spall shield layer.

We have just published a blog post on the different types of transparent armor at http://www.highlinepc.blogspot.com if you are interested.


HighLinePC, what are you adding here? if you look back through the posts you will see that the subject of how bullet resistant glass is manufactured has been well covered. Most, if not all bullet resistant laminates are manufactured using glass and not plastic. Furthermore "Spall Shield" would be the final layer in the makeup on the inside. You forgot to mention "Low Spall" and" No Spall" Also, if given a certain ballistic threat it would be a simple solution to stop a required round, there is no mystery of "confidential or classified". Your company is not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government and has no site clearance and or security clearances to manufacturer glass of a "Classified" nature. The use of "Film" for "Smash Grab applications has also been well discussed on this forum.
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#91 TexasBob

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  02 August 2010 - 08:54 PM

Thats because they have no legitimate testing. Only snake oil salesman pics. Proof is in the pudding...or the test data!!!!


Hello all, TexasBob here.

Well put Customtinting...............! You are the man...!

You have to wonder how many of their customers have been shot and killed. I'm guessing no one will fess up?

Hey bulldog good point too. I guess HighLinePC has not read any of the posts, just plugging their product.



Keep those bullets flying TBob
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#92 HighLinePC

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  03 August 2010 - 06:31 AM

Most bullet resistant laminates are constructed from three types of material. The first material is something that absorbs the energy of the projectile. For low calibre defense, this material can be cell cast acrylic (usually 1.25" or more thick), for higher calibre and military applications it is more usually glass. When the glass breaks it absorbs the energy of the projectile. Often the strike face uses hardened glass to break up the projectile before it hits secondary layers of glass. The second type of material is usually a polycarbonate or similar to act as a spall shield. The spall shield is used to prevent fragments of glass injuring personnel behind the transparent armor - it really doesn't matter if you are hit by the projectile or the glass, they can both injure or kill. Polycarbonate works because it is virtually unbreakable and flexible (unlike acrylic) and therefore retains the fragments. For VIP and diplomatic protection cars the spall shield layer is usually 3mm or 1/8" thick. For military applications we have supplied 6mm and even 9mm polycarbonate. The type of Polycarbonate is also critical, most commodity Polycarbonate performs extremely poorly. There is a viewpoint that two 3mm layers actually act as a better spall shield than one 6mm layer. The third type of material in the laminate is in effect an adhesive between the glass and polycarbonate, or the glass and glass layers. Materials such as TPU are used for this adhesive. The TPU also is used to protect the laminate from the different expansion rates of Polycarbonate and Glass. The laminates are produced in an autoclave, often at 250 F for 8 hours.

The thickness of the glass laminate and the polycarbonate in the laminate depend on the size of the projectile and the velocity of the projectile. At HighLine Polycarbonate we typically recommend 3mm Polycarbonate for low end threats. For high end military applications the structure of the laminates are often confidential or classified.

In theory a film would act as a spall shield for low calibre, low velocity projectiles. For example a glass window with a laminated PC film would prevent fragments of glass from hitting occupants if a rock was thrown at the window. For a high velocity NATO round I would not want to use a film as a spall shield layer.

We have just published a blog post on the different types of transparent armor at http://www.highlinepc.blogspot.com if you are interested.


HighLinePC, what are you adding here? if you look back through the posts you will see that the subject of how bullet resistant glass is manufactured has been well covered. Most, if not all bullet resistant laminates are manufactured using glass and not plastic. Furthermore "Spall Shield" would be the final layer in the makeup on the inside. You forgot to mention "Low Spall" and" No Spall" Also, if given a certain ballistic threat it would be a simple solution to stop a required round, there is no mystery of "confidential or classified". Your company is not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government and has no site clearance and or security clearances to manufacturer glass of a "Classified" nature. The use of "Film" for "Smash Grab applications has also been well discussed on this forum.



To address some of your comments:
Most bullet resistant laminates are a combination of glass and plastic, particularly in higher threat applications. Saying that most, if not all, do not use plastic is not correct. Even the Dupont Spall shield product is a plastic film consisting PVB, PET and a hard-coat.

Your comment that spall shield layer would be on the inside is correct. Spall shield layers need to be on the inside to retain the glass fragments.

Low spall and no spall are general terms that attempt to quantify the effectiveness of the spall shield layer. The effectiveness of the spall shied layer is better quantified by testing to an approved standard such as ATPD-2352. Under the terms that you use, most of our customers produce no spall products. Typically we would not use these terms, this is the reason why I made no mention of them.

In a general sense you are correct that to stop a given ballistic threat it is easy for a laminator to construct an effective laminate - they would just need to keep adding layers of material until there is enough material to absorb the energy of the round - no great mystery here. However, this approach ignores a number of other critical design parameters, not least of which are weight, cost and resistance to environmental conditions (temperature, sand etc.). Just adding material will increase both weight and cost. The confidential information is how to achieve the desired ballistic performance within weight and cost constraints. The classified information is the level of ballistic threat that needs to be stopped (Anyone can download the specification ATPC-2352, but you will not be able to get hold of drawing DTA 184044 which contains the threat level information).

You state that we are not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government. We certainly do not sell Polycarbonate directly to the US Military or Government for ballistics laminates and transparent armor, because neither they nor us produce the transparent armor. We sell Polycarbonate to laminators that produce transparent armor for the US military. We work with these laminators under confidentiality and other agreements to assist in the design of the laminates.
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#93 Bulldog Direct

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  03 August 2010 - 04:10 PM

Most bullet resistant laminates are constructed from three types of material. The first material is something that absorbs the energy of the projectile. For low calibre defense, this material can be cell cast acrylic (usually 1.25" or more thick), for higher calibre and military applications it is more usually glass. When the glass breaks it absorbs the energy of the projectile. Often the strike face uses hardened glass to break up the projectile before it hits secondary layers of glass. The second type of material is usually a polycarbonate or similar to act as a spall shield. The spall shield is used to prevent fragments of glass injuring personnel behind the transparent armor - it really doesn't matter if you are hit by the projectile or the glass, they can both injure or kill. Polycarbonate works because it is virtually unbreakable and flexible (unlike acrylic) and therefore retains the fragments. For VIP and diplomatic protection cars the spall shield layer is usually 3mm or 1/8" thick. For military applications we have supplied 6mm and even 9mm polycarbonate. The type of Polycarbonate is also critical, most commodity Polycarbonate performs extremely poorly. There is a viewpoint that two 3mm layers actually act as a better spall shield than one 6mm layer. The third type of material in the laminate is in effect an adhesive between the glass and polycarbonate, or the glass and glass layers. Materials such as TPU are used for this adhesive. The TPU also is used to protect the laminate from the different expansion rates of Polycarbonate and Glass. The laminates are produced in an autoclave, often at 250 F for 8 hours.

The thickness of the glass laminate and the polycarbonate in the laminate depend on the size of the projectile and the velocity of the projectile. At HighLine Polycarbonate we typically recommend 3mm Polycarbonate for low end threats. For high end military applications the structure of the laminates are often confidential or classified.

In theory a film would act as a spall shield for low calibre, low velocity projectiles. For example a glass window with a laminated PC film would prevent fragments of glass from hitting occupants if a rock was thrown at the window. For a high velocity NATO round I would not want to use a film as a spall shield layer.

We have just published a blog post on the different types of transparent armor at http://www.highlinepc.blogspot.com if you are interested.


HighLinePC, what are you adding here? if you look back through the posts you will see that the subject of how bullet resistant glass is manufactured has been well covered. Most, if not all bullet resistant laminates are manufactured using glass and not plastic. Furthermore "Spall Shield" would be the final layer in the makeup on the inside. You forgot to mention "Low Spall" and" No Spall" Also, if given a certain ballistic threat it would be a simple solution to stop a required round, there is no mystery of "confidential or classified". Your company is not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government and has no site clearance and or security clearances to manufacturer glass of a "Classified" nature. The use of "Film" for "Smash Grab applications has also been well discussed on this forum.



To address some of your comments:
Most bullet resistant laminates are a combination of glass and plastic, particularly in higher threat applications. Saying that most, if not all, do not use plastic is not correct. Even the Dupont Spall shield product is a plastic film consisting PVB, PET and a hard-coat.

Your comment that spall shield layer would be on the inside is correct. Spall shield layers need to be on the inside to retain the glass fragments.

Low spall and no spall are general terms that attempt to quantify the effectiveness of the spall shield layer. The effectiveness of the spall shied layer is better quantified by testing to an approved standard such as ATPD-2352. Under the terms that you use, most of our customers produce no spall products. Typically we would not use these terms, this is the reason why I made no mention of them.

In a general sense you are correct that to stop a given ballistic threat it is easy for a laminator to construct an effective laminate - they would just need to keep adding layers of material until there is enough material to absorb the energy of the round - no great mystery here. However, this approach ignores a number of other critical design parameters, not least of which are weight, cost and resistance to environmental conditions (temperature, sand etc.). Just adding material will increase both weight and cost. The confidential information is how to achieve the desired ballistic performance within weight and cost constraints. The classified information is the level of ballistic threat that needs to be stopped (Anyone can download the specification ATPC-2352, but you will not be able to get hold of drawing DTA 184044 which contains the threat level information).

You state that we are not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government. We certainly do not sell Polycarbonate directly to the US Military or Government for ballistics laminates and transparent armor, because neither they nor us produce the transparent armor. We sell Polycarbonate to laminators that produce transparent armor for the US military. We work with these laminators under confidentiality and other agreements to assist in the design of the laminates.


HightLinePC.............What is your point,? so you sell polycarbonate that is made in Japan and have had a website as of 7-23-08.
All of the Bullet Resistant Glass manufacturers we know would use the far superior GE product that is made in the USA. Of course DuPont Spall Shield is a laminated plastic product, it has to be, to be a spall liner.

Low Spall or No Spall is very simple " Low Spall" as you must know is simply glass as the final inside layer of glass, some customers use this as you must know for ease of cleaning and ability to not discolor or scratch, and are not concerned with the glass spalling from impact. "No-Spall" as again you must know is where polycarbonate or DuPont Spall Shield is used the final layer on the inside, where glass spalling from impact is of high concern. Again what is your point?

I am correct, as would anyone else on this forum that knows ballistics and ballistic threats. It is a very simple process to stop the threat. A customer has a given round to stop and there is a given thickness and lay-up of glass and yes polycarbonate to stop the threat and yes the higher the threat the thicker and heavier the glass has to be, that is the law of physics, It's not confidential or classified information.

Not to be rude, but all of the Bullet Resistant Glass manufacturers we have dealt with have in -house ballistic engineers and would also have their glass tested by an approved testing laboratory. You would have no exposure to classified information and talking about ATPC-2352 is meaningless to most on this forum. We are an approved vendor to the US Military and Government and have been doing so for over 12 years, providing Bullet Resistant solutions, but are not here to try and impress anyone, or to be arrogant. I can see not further need to respond to any of your comments, as again Bullet Resistant Glass has been well covered here, and your comments are nothing new.
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#94 TexasBob

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  06 August 2010 - 06:38 PM

Most bullet resistant laminates are constructed from three types of material. The first material is something that absorbs the energy of the projectile. For low calibre defense, this material can be cell cast acrylic (usually 1.25" or more thick), for higher calibre and military applications it is more usually glass. When the glass breaks it absorbs the energy of the projectile. Often the strike face uses hardened glass to break up the projectile before it hits secondary layers of glass. The second type of material is usually a polycarbonate or similar to act as a spall shield. The spall shield is used to prevent fragments of glass injuring personnel behind the transparent armor - it really doesn't matter if you are hit by the projectile or the glass, they can both injure or kill. Polycarbonate works because it is virtually unbreakable and flexible (unlike acrylic) and therefore retains the fragments. For VIP and diplomatic protection cars the spall shield layer is usually 3mm or 1/8" thick. For military applications we have supplied 6mm and even 9mm polycarbonate. The type of Polycarbonate is also critical, most commodity Polycarbonate performs extremely poorly. There is a viewpoint that two 3mm layers actually act as a better spall shield than one 6mm layer. The third type of material in the laminate is in effect an adhesive between the glass and polycarbonate, or the glass and glass layers. Materials such as TPU are used for this adhesive. The TPU also is used to protect the laminate from the different expansion rates of Polycarbonate and Glass. The laminates are produced in an autoclave, often at 250 F for 8 hours.

The thickness of the glass laminate and the polycarbonate in the laminate depend on the size of the projectile and the velocity of the projectile. At HighLine Polycarbonate we typically recommend 3mm Polycarbonate for low end threats. For high end military applications the structure of the laminates are often confidential or classified.

In theory a film would act as a spall shield for low calibre, low velocity projectiles. For example a glass window with a laminated PC film would prevent fragments of glass from hitting occupants if a rock was thrown at the window. For a high velocity NATO round I would not want to use a film as a spall shield layer.

We have just published a blog post on the different types of transparent armor at http://www.highlinepc.blogspot.com if you are interested.


HighLinePC, what are you adding here? if you look back through the posts you will see that the subject of how bullet resistant glass is manufactured has been well covered. Most, if not all bullet resistant laminates are manufactured using glass and not plastic. Furthermore "Spall Shield" would be the final layer in the makeup on the inside. You forgot to mention "Low Spall" and" No Spall" Also, if given a certain ballistic threat it would be a simple solution to stop a required round, there is no mystery of "confidential or classified". Your company is not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government and has no site clearance and or security clearances to manufacturer glass of a "Classified" nature. The use of "Film" for "Smash Grab applications has also been well discussed on this forum.



To address some of your comments:
Most bullet resistant laminates are a combination of glass and plastic, particularly in higher threat applications. Saying that most, if not all, do not use plastic is not correct. Even the Dupont Spall shield product is a plastic film consisting PVB, PET and a hard-coat.

Your comment that spall shield layer would be on the inside is correct. Spall shield layers need to be on the inside to retain the glass fragments.

Low spall and no spall are general terms that attempt to quantify the effectiveness of the spall shield layer. The effectiveness of the spall shied layer is better quantified by testing to an approved standard such as ATPD-2352. Under the terms that you use, most of our customers produce no spall products. Typically we would not use these terms, this is the reason why I made no mention of them.

In a general sense you are correct that to stop a given ballistic threat it is easy for a laminator to construct an effective laminate - they would just need to keep adding layers of material until there is enough material to absorb the energy of the round - no great mystery here. However, this approach ignores a number of other critical design parameters, not least of which are weight, cost and resistance to environmental conditions (temperature, sand etc.). Just adding material will increase both weight and cost. The confidential information is how to achieve the desired ballistic performance within weight and cost constraints. The classified information is the level of ballistic threat that needs to be stopped (Anyone can download the specification ATPC-2352, but you will not be able to get hold of drawing DTA 184044 which contains the threat level information).

You state that we are not an approved vendor to the US Military or Government. We certainly do not sell Polycarbonate directly to the US Military or Government for ballistics laminates and transparent armor, because neither they nor us produce the transparent armor. We sell Polycarbonate to laminators that produce transparent armor for the US military. We work with these laminators under confidentiality and other agreements to assist in the design of the laminates.


HightLinePC.............What is your point,? so you sell polycarbonate that is made in Japan and have had a website as of 7-23-08.
All of the Bullet Resistant Glass manufacturers we know would use the far superior GE product that is made in the USA. Of course DuPont Spall Shield is a laminated plastic product, it has to be, to be a spall liner.

Low Spall or No Spall is very simple " Low Spall" as you must know is simply glass as the final inside layer of glass, some customers use this as you must know for ease of cleaning and ability to not discolor or scratch, and are not concerned with the glass spalling from impact. "No-Spall" as again you must know is where polycarbonate or DuPont Spall Shield is used the final layer on the inside, where glass spalling from impact is of high concern. Again what is your point?

I am correct, as would anyone else on this forum that knows ballistics and ballistic threats. It is a very simple process to stop the threat. A customer has a given round to stop and there is a given thickness and lay-up of glass and yes polycarbonate to stop the threat and yes the higher the threat the thicker and heavier the glass has to be, that is the law of physics, It's not confidential or classified information.

Not to be rude, but all of the Bullet Resistant Glass manufacturers we have dealt with have in -house ballistic engineers and would also have their glass tested by an approved testing laboratory. You would have no exposure to classified information and talking about ATPC-2352 is meaningless to most on this forum. We are an approved vendor to the US Military and Government and have been doing so for over 12 years, providing Bullet Resistant solutions, but are not here to try and impress anyone, or to be arrogant. I can see not further need to respond to any of your comments, as again Bullet Resistant Glass has been well covered here, and your comments are nothing new.



Hello all, TexasBob here.

HighLinePC.... Bulldog does have a valid obsevation...What point are you trying to make with all of your doublespeak and gibberish. DTA 184044 ATPC-2352 who cares..... All you need is DD2345 approval to view specifications on the glass. None your words or statements make any sense . I won't even go into your amateur / un informed comments on Spall Shield. We use bullet resistant glass in all of our vehicle armoring, and have checked with a few of our glass manufacturers and it seems no one has heard of you...go figure. Looks like BS101 ego issues here!

Keep those bullets flying TBob
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