Low E Squared glass VS Film

Anyone else seen this???

The other day I was at home depot and passed this display for low E glass.
It had a heat lamp shining through A clear peice of double pane glass and a double pane low E squared peice of glass side by side. On the other side of the panes there was this thing that resembled a light bulb, inside the bulb thing was a weather vain like thing balanced on the tip of a needle. It had 4 sguares kind like a wind mill. One side of each square was black the other was white. When the lamp was turned on the vain behind the clear glass started to spin pretty fast , while the one behind the low e glass spun alot slower. The glass was removeble , so I swicthed them to make sure it was on the up and up.

Well I thought, Damn this could be a good demo thing if I could get my hands on one of those bulb things, and If window film would do the same thing. So I ran out to the truck and got some samples, came back in and started sliding film samples infront of the clear glass to see what it did compared to the low E glass. I was shocked, I use Sun Gard film, The signature 35, which is a pretty neutral film slowed the vain doun a little but now where near what the low E glass did. The I used an Elite 30 sample, which is very reflective, that slowed them doun to about the same. The elite 15 all but made it stop.

My question is how does somthing that is almost clear stop as much heat as a 25-28% highly reflective film?

And also what the heck makes that thing spin??

it's a radiometer

how it works

The wings in the Radiometer are alternately light and dark in color. When light strikes these wings heat is transfered to each one, but not to the same degree. The lighter wing acts as a mirror and reflects the light & the dark wing absorbs the light.the stronger the light, the more energy there is to " heat up" the dark wing, allowing it to move faster as the light gets brighter.

Cool!!. Thanks

Call a V-Kool or Huper Rep.

The Low E2 is blocking Near IR while transmitting the Visible Light. A conventional film blocks a mediocre amount of Visible and IR light. That's why a clear film that blocks 94% of the IR is blocking as much heat as a Silver 30 would.

I was starting to think everyone forgot about me.

Thanks for the info!!

so metint did you ADD to that post or make it shorter

+

True.

Lets look at some films tested at the iso9050 2003, NFRC 300 2003, and prEN 410 standard.

look at a film like VK-70. at 1000nm it passes less than 10%, tapers to less than 2% at 1200nm and stays below that up to 2500nm. yeah.. it is really rejecting heat is the form of IR. True that is still transmits 73% of the Visible light and less than 1% UV. Putting the true heat rejection (only Film, no glass subtractions) at >54%.

Lets look at Panaroma Sterling 70 . At 1000nm, it is transmitting over 60%, tapering to over 25% at 2500nm. Still alowing over 70 Visible light transmission.

Now lets look at Solar Gard Stainless Steel 30. At 1000nm it transmits about 38% and dips steady at 28% to 2500nm. It gains a fair amount of heat reduction by reducing the Visible light to 30%. TSER of 53%.

The trick to impressing people is to use only a red IR lamp to show the film performance. If you took out the red lamp and put in a white IR ulb, you would see a closer real life comparison of the films.

I'm not saying that a conventional film doesn't work, I'm just saying that a tinted metalized film blocks a different portion of the "heat gain". If you really wanted to get into it, we could look at the amount of heat gained in the winter by a Spectrally selective film through visble light, then add the insulative value for interior IR reflection and come to roughly 35% winter heat gain. (We would have to look beyond conduction and convection of the glass surface and air currents) Who cares about that.

What does it look like, does it do what I want it to do? Do I want to do business with you?

I've sold against V-Kool, Huper and Vista Spectra Select left and right. Some poeple like the reflection, some people like no reflection, some people want clear, some people want tinted, some people want the cheapest fillm they can get, some people want only the best. Every film has it's pro's and cons.

One problem that the film industry faces is truth in numbers. Every manufacturer publishes numbers that boast their films and omit numbers hurt them.. V-Kool and Huper are going to push IR. Metalized films will push TSER. Low E Films will push U Value. Most companies do not publish SHGC. Most people get sold on the R and U values of windows. Most films don't even have these measurements because to get a good R and U value requires a reduction of conduction, not radiation. Films block RADIATION. Not to mention the building codes rarely even compensate for the performance increases that a film provides when considering glazing requirements.



There are several standards that do measure IR. ISO 9050:2003, NFRC 300 2003, or prEN 410. These may not be the adopted standard, but they do mesure IR in the total calculation.

From ISO:

ISO 9050:2003 specifies methods of determining light and energy transmittance of solar radiation for glazing in buildings. These characteristic data can serve as a basis for light, heating and ventilation calculations of rooms and can permit comparison between different types of glazing.

ISO 9050:2003 is applicable both to conventional glazing units and to absorbing or reflecting solar-control glazing, used as glazed apertures. The appropriate formulae for single, double and triple glazing are given. Furthermore, the general calculation procedures for units consisting of more than components are established.

ISO 9050:2003 is applicable to all transparent materials. One exception is the treatment of the secondary heat transfer factor and the total solar energy factor for those materials that show significant transmittance in the wavelength region of ambient temperature radiation (5 microns to 50 microns), such as certain plastic sheets.

OK you two I give up

I suggest NO ONE ask metint or poser about quantum physics

Thanks for all the imput guys, I have learned a few things.

I know this is an old post...but hey....I've been gone for a YEAR!

OK TP and metint....you guys just gave me the biggest tint woody I've had in years. Not that I understood everything the first time I read the posts, but damn....I get all geeked out when I read technical stuff. i'll have to read it again when I calm down. But for now....i'm going to take my tint woody and spank myself to sleep.

Well I just sprayed coffee all over the place. I have no clue why I missed this post.






If I remember correctly, Southwall's technology is being used to create this glass.

Good post Poser

LowE2 is a great performer... and costly, too.

Myth or not, they do a fantastic job. When you take Drei and lay it next to, lets say N-1040, or SG-330, or what ever. There is a huge difference of heat that you feel on your skin from the sun.



Why would you want to install a 20% silver on a house anyway? Or for that matter, why go that dark? If you go that dark, why have windows?

Maybe because they live on a golf course and have to deal with 100's of people walking in front of their windows...but love the view and face west. Silver 20 is one of the most popular films that I install because of all the golf courses and lakes around here. I don't think it's as drastic as some seem to think.

Man this thread is working me better than some of the P**n chicks I take shots of at the conventions.

No matter what any of us think which film is best, what specs are the best, too dark or too light.....what it all comes down to is what the customer wants. They want glare reduction and heat reduction....I go dark. Then if they say they also want light coming in...I go medium. If they don't care about the light......well hell...lets go with dark.

What gets me with some of these customers is when they say they want glare reduction...but all the light coming in. I 'm always like WTF you want me to do? But believe it or not...I usually find a film that they will be happy with.

Ok...enough about my opinions...let me read this thread again....I'm going to keep spankin' myself until the tip turns black and blue.

Two things



I thought I was the only one who hears that on a daily basis. Um Ma'am. I can only do one or the other. I can't do both, just think about it for a sec




If I ever meet you, remind me not to shake your hand

Then why the obsession to use IR rejection instead of the true measure of film performance... TSER? There's only one group selling under IR and the rest of the industry sell under TSER... looks...

Not disputing the performance of Drei or Sech, they are both based in pure silver deposition save one using IR absorbing material to boost its performance.

Hey DWIWD... be aware of the four hour woody consequences...

PM me, I would love to talk with you on the phone.

I have tested both Spectra Select 70, VK-70 and a Korean 70% IR absorber. Yeah, there was a point that the absorbed heat re-radiated and eventually raised the BTU reading and the temperature of our test subject (Pair of Black Socks balled up) It was much more evident with the cheap korean film than the spectra select. The VK-70 raised a bit, but not quite as much as the spectra select did.

there is more than just silver in both the spectra select and the V-Kool/Huper. We still sell under TSER, but when we compare our films, name another film that has 65% Tser and a 43% VLt, or 73% VLT and 55% TSER. Find a Film that has 43% VLT and a SC of .41.

It's like saying that a Mercedes is no good becaue the rest of the car market sells on price. Different strokes for different folks.

As far as Glare Control goes, I have to draw a damn graph for my clients showing light to glare. Seems to make them understand a bit better without talking about Color Trmperatures and Lumens.

listen close, give them something close, and Charge accordingly

I've PM'd a number direct to my desk... so we can as much as we care to... Look forward to it.

Certainly open to a different perspective than what I have at the time and seems to have been molded around one side of the story to a certain degree... in that the films in question (both sides of the fence) have for sure been taken apart and analyzed down to the molecular level. If there's something I am missing out on that is in fact true about the products, I am open to hearing it.

As to BTU comparison... it has been my understanding this is not a device that can truly measure film performance because of its limitations in ability to discern between all wavelengths in the solar spectrum... a spectrometer would of course do the job, but a little pricey for the every day film seller to tote around with them.

These films we speak of must perform well at differing wavelength bands of the spectrum and that is evident when using a BTU meter.

blade vs metint

more like metint verse TP

[/QUOTE]Much of what is absorbed can radiate to the interior. Not very efficient from rejection standpoint, maybe from standing off away from the glass[QUOTE]

That would be true is you were installing black-out on 1/4" clear glass. You would be radiating more than rejecting.

Now with solar control films, what you reject is far greater than what you radiate. All films absorb heat, doesn't matter what brand it is.

Much of what is absorbed can radiate to the interior. Not very efficient from rejection standpoint, maybe from standing off away from the glass

True that!

name another film that has 65% Tser and a 43% VLt, or 73% VLT and 55% TSER. Find a Film that has 43% VLT and a SC of .41.


[COLOR=blue][SIZE=7]Anyone heard of Hilite?

You are insinuating that YOU are the only one around here with an inkling of knowledge in the film industry. To be honest, this is getting old reading all of these post of yours promoting your brand you represent as the ONLY film out there.

Am I an expert? Probably not, but in 19 years I have learned enough to stand next to the best of them. I have been doing this long enough to know where the true smoke blows instead of others yelling smoke and mirrors.

If insinuation is what you get out of it... it's your mind... I don't know how many times I've said I know nothing compared to others where I work and yes that is my world in the industry... the manufacturing side.

First I catch lip for dogging other products, now I catch lip for promoting the product that puts food on the table for my family, too.

Noooo... I am no expert, but if I don't know, I'll go ask one for an awswer. If I find something posted here that makes no sense to me, I go ask... If I'm bullheaded enough to continue believing what I believe, then so be it. I go around misinformed as well. I can also admit I am wrong.

So I miunderstood the mechanics of how film truly worked, did I see you offering up an in depth explanation to me? Did you try to keep a dialog going?

As one major figure in the film industry once commented about this site, there's as much misinformation as good information... if you see me posting misinfo you're free to refute and or debate it. If you find it too controversial to participate, don't, but that's where the learning ends.

Just as much as you find another film products tactics distasteful, so it is on the other side of the fence. It will always be this way... If we all agreed, how boring life would be. I have found it really takes much more salesmanship to sell a product many others around you carry. It's a walk in the park when the product is not available to all, you?

Come back, read this one last time and maybe you can overlook my natural and unconscious, at times, necessity to promote the one name that has served me so well. I have at times and can still overlook the many products you or anyone else sell, and in the end maybe we can have some great debates that would benefit more than just you or me.

I forgot to add.. no shinny. Yeah, there are many fiilms that have great performance, and like all films, have their disadvantages.

Affordable metalized films have good VLT and good Heat Rejection, but look like mirrors.

Huper, V-Kool, Vista (spectra Select) have great heat rejection, great VLt, but the price can be seen as prohibitive.

A good summary of film performance: Is a porche a car with a lot of HP, great lines, luxurious. Yes. Compared next to a mustang, it is out of the question if you factor in price.

Can't dispute that...

And yes Bekaert's Hilite can fall in with the above named films...

Don't think so



That is why I am in business also, to take care of my family.

When I read words such as hype, smoke and mirrors, yes I will speak up. Why do you feel the need to dog other products? Have you ever seen me dog any? The only comment I have ever had was the tactics being used.

If these products are so bad, that you are so against, as well as the company you work for, why is a representative of that company allowed to be on the board of the IWFA? Your company has enough clout to force this individual off if this film was all hype and smoke and mirrors.

And back to my original question. If this technology is all hype and smoke and mirrors, why develop a product to compete against it?

Now back to your comment about absorption creating radiated heat. In a layman’s thought, one would think you are indicating the room either wouldn’t feel any difference in the room, or you would feel more heat radiating from that window into the room once these films were installed.

In my house, I originally installed Madico TSG-335, seven years ago, to reduce some heat, but mainly to control the fade to my Hunter Douglas fabric blinds. My utility bills were running over $500 a month during the summer. When I decided it was time to install Huper to my house, I had one of my son's walk around for two days with thermometers in every room to document temperatures throughout the day. I installed Huper Drei to the west wall and south. I installed Huper Sech to the east wall and north. The very next day, with Huper installed, I lowered the temperature an average of seven degrees in each room with the afternoon sun. This was done mid July in 2002. My utility bills dropped an average of $125 per month. My highest electric bill last year was $395.

Now if this film were radiating a huge amount of heat, wouldn’t the bedrooms on the west wall be warmer than the east side in the afternoon? Guess what, the east side and west side had the same temperature in mid afternoon. Or better yet, wouldn't I be suffering from broken windows?

All of my windows are IG clear glass and the house is nine years old. The west wall has a 3’ X 6’ arched pane with shadowing in the foyer. The south wall has shadowing from the house next door (winter months). And the east wall has one tree in front of the kitchen and master bath. To date, I have never replaced a pane of glass due to heat stress. I did replace one (the only one ever) last year when the landscaper broke it with a flying rock.

Last year I replaced 15 panes of glass due to cracking with window film. I have never replaced a pane for seal failure. Of those 15, eight were Huper installs, six were 3M, and one was Madico. The Huper installs were mostly ceramic 30, two ceramic 50 and one was Sech. 80% of my installs last year were with Huper and 5% was 3M. So based on your theory of absorption and glass breakage, it doesn’t fit on my side of the street. Looking back at my percentages, 3M created more problems for me than the other two.

Like I said before, you won’t hear me dog another brand, or my competition for that matter. In most cases I agree with what you post. I just get tired of how this is being presented as fact (smoke and mirrors and hype). When in my case, it is fiction when you look at the performances.

I won't use smoke and mirrors if you or any one else that sells film doesn't use IR rejection.

Seems facts in a most negative light stimulate controversy!


Yes... Vista as I recollect.


Because he's a member. I don't believe they are on the WFC of Aimcal, though.


No doubt a defensive business move to keep those believing in one company from falling to another.


Had a woman once accuse me of not delivering on heat reduction after she placed her hand on the surface of one of the windows I had recently tinted for her. Went out and checked it myself... dammm that glass was hot. Bronze/silver 80, the film. Stand close to the window and you can feel it.


My concern 'threshold' for glass breakage obviously is different from yours.


Okay...


Well, thank you... for the most part I can say the same for your posts.

Most people get sold on the R and U values of windows. Most films don't even have these measurements because to get a good R and U value requires a reduction of conduction, not radiation. Films block RADIATION.

FYI, R - Value / U Value measure an objects ability to block the flow of heat. Although conductive loss is the largest contributor to heat loss, radiation is an important part of the equation.

Depends upon the part of the country you are in.

Funny... could of swore I saw Winter/Summer U values on LLu's architectural film performance charts...

If I am not mistaken, the lower the U value the better insulating capability of a given film product.

Courtesy llumartech.com:
U-value
The U-value (sometimes called the "U-Factor") should be understood as the overall heat transfer coefficient of the glazing system. The U -value is a measure of the heat transfer that occurs through the glazing system between its outer and inner surfaces. This value is a function of temperature, and is expressed in BTUs per square foot per hour per degree Fahrenheit (BTU/ ft2/hr/degree F). The lower the U- Factor, the better the insulation qualities of the glazing system. Alternative definition: The "coefficient of heat transfer;" a measure of the ability of a material to resist heat transfer. The number is actually the number of BTUs per square foot per hour per °F of temperature difference across a barrier. The lower the U value, the slower heat moves by conduction through the material.
U-Value and R-Value measurements are similar—but reciprocal—in nature. They quantify the rate at which heat is transferred through a material due to temperature differences between its opposing surfaces. The window films industry uses two standards of measurement to determine U-values for glazing systems:

AIMCAL Median Winter Conditions ("Winter Median U-value"): With (a) the outside temperature set at 45°F, (b) the inside temperature set at 68°F, © no sunlight illuminating the glass, and (d) the outside wind speed set at 15 mph, the "Winter Median U-value" can be measured in terms of the number of BTU’s per square foot per hour lost through the glass.
ASHRAE Summer Conditions ("Summer Conditions U-value"): With (a) the outside temperature set at 89°F, (b) the inside temperature set at 75°F, © sunlight illuminating the exterior of the glass at the intensity of 248 BTUs per square foot per hour, and (d) the outside wind speed set at 7½ mph, the "Summer U-value" can be measured in terms of the number of BTUs per square foot per hour gained through the glass by conduction and re-radiation.
Other professional engineers in the insulation and construction industry use the measure of "R-Value," which denotes a material's ability to act as an insulator. The higher the R-Value, the slower the heat transfer rate; it is the reciprocal of the U-Value, expressed as R = 1/U. A window with a U-value of 0.25 has an R-value of 4.0 (1 divided by 0.25).

Relevance to the customer: U-values of glass are not much affected by most films, although "winter" (low-e) films offer significant heat loss reduction.

Hello everyone,
Its been a lont time but Metint and his stripes never change. I guess i will continue hybernation later.
Metint, call it what you want, smoke and mirrors or if yuo can think of anything worse, I am surprised thats all you have so far.

I guess I will have to reeducate you on what ceramics are and the fact a competitor cannot just put stickers on its samples that say "yes, its ceramic". That do not change the composition of a window film. Why Huper mentions the Ceramic nature is due to its durability not just because it is a type of ceramic.
Just because a car has 2 doors does not mean its a sports car or fast.

Anyway, I have alot to prepare for our dealer meeting this week so will check back in a week or two but when i do check back, I will have an experiment for YOU, and anyone who thinks that Huper Ceramic films are not the industry leaders to try. I will be revealing this test at the dealer meeting this week. Dont worry, its not expensive but will open your eyes as well as all your dealers that think otherwise.

Just another way, I think I will be able to educate your kind. In the meantime keep it up as you will be digging a hole for yourself. As for mirrors, is it not ironic, that its is your films that are reflective like mirrors.

Harry

Haven't a clue what hole you speak of, Harry...

In your absence from participating I've learned much. I've learned the true performance values of the product you represent and they are impressive enough not to be confusing consumers with a number that's never been used before, namely IR rejection.

Now I am sure during the course of the last few years you've been spearheading the marketing concept behind your product, you have had enough spirited debates within the upper echelons of the industry to know that it isn't the performance or the way the product is made, it's the IR rejection numbers used to sell the product that all seem to take issue with... save your organization.

I've also met enough people who have been introduced to your concept of selling and were, to put it lightly, not impressed either. It will always be this way. One side thinks they're the b*mb and the other side says, yeah right. Human nature. One side gets their share, the other side gets some too. Your product is a niche product and will pretty much remain there. And you know full well that the product I admire most isn't all reflective and that they too are capable of technological advances in film.

Talked with a gentlemen by phone today about his selling strategy when it comes to VK film... he's right on the money even without the IR rejection number. Which by the by, a couple of folks have attempted to decipher how the number is obtained and still cannot figure it out. Mainly because there isn't a consistency to any calculation that arrives at a number that makes sense each time its tried on different film performance values.

Again, it's not anything to do with the quality of performance or the deposition used... it's everything to do with selling tactics. There's the straight forward approach and then there's... well you know more about marketing than I so I'll leave the selling to you and I'll stick to film.

Last visit I had to your products web site didn't reveal the blanket statement bashing the rest of the industry that I once saw there... Thank God we both can move on without taking swipes at each other over something we both may take as serious as the other.

Cheers to ya,

You guys need to take this off site.

NO MAS.