Champagne Unavoidable?

Need some advice from you experienced 8 mil installers out there. No matter what techniques we try, and we've read everyone's suggestions here and of course from our rep, we can't get the stuff to go on without at least a little champagne bubbling or streaking here and there. Our rep is saying with the 8 mil it's just a fact of life that is unavoidable. Is anyone out there getting this stuff to go on clean? If so is it just the brand I'm using? Are particular brands of security film known to have this problem more so than others? Any guidance would be appreciated.

Wftech

There are 2 or 3 brands that are finicky at install... one of them may have the clearest adhesive and should not be squeegeed more than once using an aggressive technique and if at all possible, should not be installed in direct sunlight. If so, ice in the application solution may go a long way in reducing temperatures of water, glass, and film.

Haven't tried ice yet, thanks for the tip. Although we are not installing in sunlight, we'll try anything at this point. I'm not sure if it's kosher to name names here, but I'm wondering whuich are the finicky brands? Armorcoat is the one I'm working with.

Wftech

The tip with 8 is to make sure that once you get the film on the glass, make sure your first squeegee pass anywhere with a 4" clear Max is not limp wristed. This is most important to avoid squashed air or smudging.
After that first hit, squeegee the living daylights out of it big time.
If you see a smudge go back over it and pound the fuccer out of it.

An easy pass during initial setup will smudge but it will go in time depending on ambient heat and sun exposure around or on the film.
Devil

When we see bubbles or veins, it is because the installers have not used enough soap in their mix. Sometimes you have to move water pockets from other portions of the film to erase the water lines or spotting.

I haven't found that at all TP but agreed you do need the right amount to get the film to slip in order to handle it.
Devil

This being the basis for CPFilms now encouraging the use of twice the norm of FilmOn for installation of thick gage films.

First time replying, but thought I should. Adequate amount of soap is critical, but not too much else film continues to move. Leverage is the key. If you have to be on ladder, uneven weight distribution during squeegee will cause champagne bubbles. Slow even force and overlap at least 1/2 previous pass. No one could make sense of champagne bubbles, but I think it is caused by the thick adhesive on 8 mil and above films. While trying to get water out under the film, the thick adhesive is being shifted, thus causing tiny bubbles to get trap. Just my theory. I too am using Armorcoat.

Partly correct... champagne bubbles are from air being forced through the adhesive structure. Very difficult to remove even with the method tintposer has spoke of.

Extra slip in the application solution is key to keeping the adhesive from sticking too quick before hammering the surface with a squeegee. Air in front of the squeegee blade hits a tacked area... Bam!... You force the air into the adhesive causing microscopic bubbles (been looked at under a microscope).

Minimal overlaps and consistency in pressure are also important. The best thing anyone could do for this issue is to use a cleaning squeegee to lightly squeegee the bulk of the solution out, leaving no air pockets and a thin sheet of solution. Then come back with one good, aggressive squeegee pass with very little overlap and no other pass once the adhesive has been 'pressed' to the glass (meaning just one time with the heavy hand). Hard card dry the edges only.

Need to retrieve a contaminant or water bubble... best lift the film to that point, saturate under the film (lift contaminant) and squeegee the wet area only, making sure not to strike any film area that has been 'pressed' into place.

in a couple days, i got a one pane with this similar problem, will post pictures for before removing and reapplying 8mil safety film...

Well, "that's the way it is" is nothing but bull, I mean a poor reply from your rep. I can tell you that it is possible to even install 15 mil without the champagne bubbles. It is the tool, the power and the technique to make sure that the power you put into the tool sufficiently ends up at the glass. Having enough slip also plays a role.I am not saying it is easy but definitely possible. Manufacturer may make a difference - I am not aware of it.
The problem is simply left over foam. And you don't have a second chance of removing it because on the second squeegee stroke there is not enough water left to carry away the bubbles.
For the 15mil film you would need at least a second installer to hold the film in place while you squeegee. Windows where there is no way of supplying means to get the needed leverage can't be succesfully filmed.

Five foot by five foot piece of 15 mil weighed in around three pounds on the UPS scale.

Most installers try to put up 8mil and above by cutting the film excess in place just like on 2 mil films. I have noticed that this isn't the best way. I have found that if you precut the film, "throw a sheet up in on the window, liner facing outside, cut the sides or trim, then remove from window". Now squeegee the window one more time for preperation. Now install the film "Postage Stamp Style". You will find that by having the film lay completly flat it greatly reduces the chances of smearing bubbles as mentioned. I believe the number one problem is the film liftinging off the glass when cutting the excess film. You will notice that most bubble problems are close to the edges, not the middle of the window usually.

Chris

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one thing that I noticed last time I installed 8 mil ( because before I had the same thing with the bubbles and champagning) is one to precut like sun said and another is to wet both the film and the window. Last time I did an 8 mil job I took a partner with me and we precut everything and then one of us would hold the film while the other peeled the liner and wet the adhesive and then sprayed the window. I didnt notice hardly any bubbles or champaigning. I am going back to this location in a few weeks and will respond back as to what it looks like.

But I think the most important things are to

1: precut the film like sun said

2: to wet both the film and the window

Sucks because you have to have 2 people there to do it but it makes for a lot less work for one person and the windows come out looking alot better.

I also made 3 passes over the film when pushing the water out.

stop being so limp wristed, but its unavoidable but something reasonable i think window film is window film so when its fresh, is going to look bubbly, but if youre going to be careless and not squeege out the water enough times, then your bound for nightmares.

someone else says it depends on what film/brand your using, i wont name brands, but some films out there have an adhesive that dry's to quick (its not bad) so by the time those champagne bubbles start to go away, they're not gonna, the adhesive is already dry and no way no how they're going away.

i've tried fixing champagne bubbles with widnows that other companies have done, i try giving them a "pinch" with your olfa blade, sometimes that helps, the excess water comes right out, but that sometimes leaves a round line or mark where the bubble has been, depending on how long.

cant we all just put 4mil?

But when you pinch the film you comprimise the integrety of the film and then you discombobulate the time space continueum.

you sounded like a rocket scientist

there are some that you can pinch. some you cant.

I was just joking with that remark. It means absolutly nothing.lol
yea you can pinch or pop some of those water spots and get all the water out of them.

When I went to that safty shield training they really pushed wetting the film and the glass but most importantly the film.
From what he explained (and I didnt really get all he was saying cause I was reading about some other part in the manual) where the adhesive is dry you will get air bubbles in the adhesive and thats where that champaining comes from.

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well I thought before that I could tint safty the same as solar, backroll it and stick it, but it takes so much time to droop the film that you get dry spots. But then again most every time I installed safty I have been by myself and didnt have anyone to help me pull the liner and wet it. After I got it up there I would do as you said about flooding it and it worked pretty good, but after I was shown at that training to wet the film and the glass I tried it and it turned out alot better. That and I had a helper there to do it like that and we also precut the film on the windows before we tinted them and they turned out close to flawless. To be honest I didnt really like laying safty film but after that madico training class I like it alot better. And as a contractor it pays more too, although I have to pay another tinter but I dont really mind it to much.

Some times you crack me up.



And then thiers now!

what about now? what did I say this time?

one thing that I noticed last time I installed 8 mil ( because before I had the same thing with the bubbles and champagning) is one to precut like sun said and another is to wet both the film

to Most especially overlapping and squeeging out very heard.

We fit 12 Mil film to car drop windows some of which require a shrink. Key thing seems to be the concentration of slip and ensuring the film is wet. It might take two people one to peel and the other to spray but if you do this and allow ten to twenty seconds so the solution can run down the whole of the film, overlap the squeeging and do so with force you won't have a problem.

We had this problem when we first started fitting thick guage film to cars - since doing the above its been eliminated completely.

interesting methods by lots of different installers. i've been filming with everything from 4 through 12 mil for years. what has worked for me is utilizing leverage. i never squeeggee security film more than one foot over my head. i always have a three step ladder so i'm pushing in my "wheelhouse."
i use a blue max (the small thin ones that come in 12" lengths). for security films, i use a 6" blue max length. i've found the blue max has no equal when it comes to moving water. also, you get 4 new edges per blade. one hand is on the handle and the other is slightly overlapping. my elbows kind of point straight out either side of my body. the power is coming straight from the chest as you lean in and push. the strokes overlap by 3 inches or so. initially tacking the film with the "T" shaped squeeggee pattern is best. after that i divide the glass into quadrants and go from top to bottom.
i quit using soapy solutions under the film years ago. the glass gets an even coat of water(no soap). the film gets sprayed until water is running down and starting to drip. i have a bucket that i hang the piece over while spraying. this takes care of excess water getting on the floor as my method takes a bit more water than others. i'm still using soapy water for cleaning and squeeggee work. when i hang, im only attempting to fit the top edge.
i've never found that pre-cutting or pattern cutting helped solve any problem in the flatglass world except for the narrow long arch windows that are often loaded with paint along the edges. even then i'm only cutting a rough pattern. if you feel like the piece is too big to fit into the glass opening (deep set casements), get a filmhandler and cut the film about 1 inch over. the filmhandler will pay for itself over time.
it is the combined effect of proper squeeggee technique, using only water under the film, using leverage and starting with pieces that are only one inch over that have eliminated champagne bubbles, streaks, etc from my installations.
every once in awhile i do get a streak in the film. it usually is the result of lazy technique with the squeeggee of maybe a blade that needs to be switched out. i'll card the imperfection and follow with more pressure from a chizler. hope this helps.

I call this the squeegee zone... much the same as the strike zone in baseball...


Guess you've not tried the PerforMax handle with a Blue Max Squared blade (auto blue max without the bevel)?

Go solid info there, Darrin...

have not tried the blue max without bevel or the handle you named.i'm using unger what's up with the handle? i'm using ungers

welcome to the board darrin

It is heavier in weight compared to Unger and seems to take some of the pressing work off the wrist.

I prefer it to the Unger and the slim Blue blade, nowadays... especially when tackling S&S...

Try putting a regular wooden Hammer replacement handle from Home Depot in the end of the unger squeegee............

Instant Power! You can push twice as hard, it's works very well with the Blue Max thin blue blades your talking about.

hey wftech:
try this next time ,when you are first applying the film , use plenty of water and as everyone said the mix is very important. film on is very consistent with lulu i dont know how it is with others .
j&j works great too. so... when you have your film up, make your first squeege with your ettore,unger or whatever you use for cleaning ;just make a smooth pass( it only takes a minute more to "soft squeege "/ then squeege as you normally would .it will solve any install problem.gauranteed

Champagne bubbles are a pain the the ass. I have found out that it's product specific, ArmCot beeing one of the worst, we no longer use that product because of that. When doing cars and using 15mil all the advise doesn't help much, you simply need a product that won't leave bubbles.

We are installing 7,8 and 12 mil every day and have no clue what you are talking about .

Using Armorcoat and other brands

Maybe the humidity ????

We only had that problem with ArmorCoat 14mil from last years production, before there was no problem at all with it. The film looks much clearer now than before (uninstalled), but it leave these damm bubbles which makes this product useless for us.

dont be so limp wristed

champagne bubbles are solely from not enough pressure while squeeging the film out in the first pass. I am in south florida, safety film capitol, and we have a installer in the shop that has been getting alot of warranties back for safety film. When I offered him a unger with a thin blade(to replace his wood block) he stated he copuldnt hold the handle, or apply enough pressure... Thus causing champagne bubbles. I have found that if you do get any marks after the first intial pass, all I do is re-peel the film until the mark is uncovered, I re-wet it, and squeegie it out again, presto, its gone. We too use Armorcoat. Also I have found with armorcoat, baby shampoo works the best, and an generous amount in each bottle.