Geoshield?

Has anyone worked with Geoshield's IRis 60 or 70? How about Bekaert's Hilite? How do they compare?
Thanks!

Don't compare those two films!!!

you can't compare an XIR type of product, something that has a high IR reflectance, to a product that has an extreemly high absorbtion rate like ceramic or chemical inhibt type films.

Geoshield claims that their product is a ceramic. It's prioced about what ceramics are. It feels too thin and a lot less stiff than any of the other ceramics. It really feels like the chemical inhibit films. When i used to do heat reflectance demonstrations, the 3m prestiege, Huper Optik Drie and Sech, Highlite 70, Vista Spectra select 70 and V-Kool 55 - 40 - 70 had awesome heat/IR reflectance. Huper optik ceramics, MAC, harmony and geoshield had low IR transmission rates, but virtually NO IR reflectance. These films got extreemly hot to the touch and even after letting them sit while i demonstrated other films, they were still hotter (even after cooling for a while) than the conventional and IR reflecting films.


I offered geoshield as a cost efective alternative to hilite/V-kool 70. I offered a much more limited warranty and had only 1 person take me up on it. The geoshield installed a lot easier than the highlite, only because the geoshield uses a much more agressive adhesive. Since we worked with mostly V-Kool PS films, the installs were about the same. The highlite peeled at the corners. (To my understanding) This has been corrected with the use of their install slip activator. Couldn't tell you since i never used it. If it were a matter of a stronger product, use the highlite. BSF will be quicker to stand behind the installation than geoshield.

Funny beyond words...

thanks for your info!

Yeah and it gets even funnier when someone tries to explain where all of that energy goes...

John...

If you can pin down Steve DeBusk at his CPF's desk, he can give you a thorough explanation of what you are asking. He is an Energy Engineer with much better credentials than any of us. Steve has been my source outside Google for any answers I may be in search of concerning film performance... His boss would be my second source, R&T third.

What I remember of his explanation is... With film installed on the interior (of course):

Single pane approximately 50/50 of the absorbed energy radiates interior/exterior.

Dual Pane approximately 75/25 radiates interior/exterior.

Provided there exists wind passing over the outer glass surface in excess of 7.5 mph.

Heat always seeks cold or cooler, not the reverse (this we learned in HS). Though, film performance numbers are obtained through the use of computer models.

It's starting to get funnier.

Steve DeBusk is very knowledgable and I can't say that enough, however, he works for CP Films and you are asking a question about a film made by Southwall. Wouldn't it be better to telephone Dr Dei or Dr Niel Bergstrom at Southwall and ask him that question about the film that he developed?

Hey guys, my name is Burns and I am the president of Geoshield. Thank
you for your interest in Geoshield and our products. I will be happy to address and questions you have about our products.

As many of you know, with window film there are always tradeoffs between performances, durability, ease of installation, and aesthetics. Our IRis 70 product is a ceramic film that is designed for high visible light transmission and low solar heat gain. And this is exactly what it does.

IRis 70 is metal/dye free and is designed to have very low reflectivity.
Because of its low reflectivity it is attractive to customers who want a virtually clear
film with good visibility, in and out, night and day and it is an
excellent film for day lighting. By not using metals our films are
extremely durable and not susceptible to oxidation and corrosion which
is a major issue down here on the coast. Edge sealing is not required
because the materials we use are extremely hydrophobic and there is no
place for oxygen molecules to bond.

Yes, window films that are highly reflective have lower SHGC but that
also usually means adding metals. But that does not mean an excellent
SHGC can not be achieved with ceramics through primarily absorbing
thermal energy and reflecting a small portion of thermal energy. IRis
70 window film has an absorption of 49% on 1/8th glass and 54% on 1/4
glass. There is heat transfer of this absorbed thermal energy and it
occurs through conduction, convection or radiation. Environmental
conditions and substrates dictate this heat transfer. A measure of
SHGC takes all these factors into account. When measuring SHGC using
set environmental conditions i.e. inside/outside temperatures, exterior
wind speeds, etc and different substrates we can give a very accurate
measurement of thermal energy exchange and SHGC. Under standard environmental conditions more of the absorbed energy is transferred to the exterior. About 70%.

There have been a lot of questions raised about ceramic films and their performance. I invite anyone who is seriously interested in becoming a Geoshield customer and wants more information about our products to contact me at www.geoshieldusa.com or give me a call 1-866-234-6133. Thank you for allowing me to post. I really appreciate this site and all its members efforts.

No need for SA convection theories... Somebody buy this man a

Thanks vclimber. I have probally learned more from you than you know.

Thanks Burns...

It tells 'standard' specific to set factors that do not occur consistently and continuously in real terms... only with a set wind speed, solar energy striking perpendicular, set outside and inside temps, etc.

Like saying a film has a lifetime warranty... and not saying anymore about how geographic location, climate conditions, exposure times, etc have bearing on outcome.

Window maker's... in dual pane scenario, since it is rapidly becoming a norm... do not place the heat absorbing panel to the interior for a very good reason and is the same reason a heat absorbing film should not be place on the interior surface (#4) of an IG unit.

Now for the sake of discussion involving no particular film name, these are the factors I have for years taken into consideration when suggesting a product for solar control. Though my perspective is slighted because my installing career spans the So. Florida climate.

This is not an environ that will fall within the 'standard' produced through computer software and models, I am sure. It takes set numbers as an average so there will be factors that swing the actual performance of heat absorbing film products from one extreme to another depending upon geographic location of install.

Just like mirrored film, there are great places to use the product and there are not, so goes it with heat absorbing products. Neither should be or become the one-size-fits-all film for the consumer interested in solar control. There are many films I would not sell no matter what name brand they had. My favorite is copper based 35% VLT... despite the color being rosy, it has some great numbers that do well for a consumer.

This, I believe, is what Tintposer was alluding to as well and the basis for 'Mountainman's' question, which I hope he has a further appreciation and understanding of how solar absorption can easily be less impressive in dealing with solar energy. Cars move, houses don't.

In closing, I agree with what Tposer has posted because a friend of mine has installed a high absorption, little reflection type film on a Quiznos outlet in his local town only to find it as much uncomfortable sitting next to the glass as it was before film installation to the IG unit, which were comprised of clear glass. Something I had anticipated having learned of solar absorption years ago in an intense climate such as that found in the Sunbelt.

Welcome to the board.

Seems guys we are too serious when speak abut such plain product like window film.
It's just polyester coated and adhesived. It's not a satellite launched t cosmos, it's radio which catch waves from air. It's piece of polyester..
Take it easy.
IMHO IMHO

Yes Leo... for some people a discussion amounts to a couple words to stab at a subject and others like to plunge in, dice and fillet.

I appreciate the discussion on this subject. Solar absorb. really affects the flat glass guys especially in the NE climates. I have heard so many horror stories about IR absorbing films breaking IG units that I just stay away from them.

As far as glass breakage an IR films goes I think SA is blown way out of proportion. If your glass is defective it does not matter what the SA is, it will most likely crack when film is applied. Cases of true thermal shock are rare unless a high SA absorbing film is placed on glass with other circumstances that increase the temperature variations on the surface of the glass (ie. shadowing, altitude, peak temps, etc). If true thermal shock were more common as some purport, then the MFG's of these films would not provide glass breakage warranties like they do now. They'd tell you not to install these films on IG glass.

It is not the film's fault when the glass is defective and cracks. The film is simply the catalist that exposes the preexisting defect. This is a far different situation from Thermal Shock, the crack signatures are even different.

It's seems to me that most posted concerns here are from people that heard of horror stories second-hand. What's even more perplexing is that I have dealt with these films in some of the harshest geography in the country for window film and I have seen no noticable difference in the occurance of glass breakage when you just use common sense as to what glass conditions you apply such films too.

Similar films work different in different areas. I can tell more - in different sides of building. Sometimes there are heatshock, sometimes - NO. And I think You can understand it only from practice. I still don't believe lab rats, may be they are triple smart, but I believe my experience, which tell that in our area film declared "INSIDE INSTALLATION ONLY" work some 5 years installed from outside. IR film which is NOT reccomended for selective glass panel works good and NO thermal shock. So

This is precisely my point in discussing heat absorption, Leo... and VC... contrary to what many want to believe, my underlying motive is to increase awareness of all aspects... even something that sounds blown out of proportion comes down to regional as well as simply being unaware or learned on the subject.

As always questions arise and threads take a right turn... it's all about learning.

I could care less about mfg warranty, my mission is to provide the best solar protection available for the customer's inquiry without putting glass at risk and like opinion's go... we all have our own ideas of what film is best for a given situation. But you know, a Mfg warranty may not be much help on a $2K window, which means I foot the bill. Am I way conservative, you bet!

We trust ONLY our experience. I remember my dealer times:
1. No any HELPFULL-USEFULL advices, SORRY WE HAVE TO CHECK, WE DON'T KNOW, WE MUST CALCULATE
2. In case any problems - ALL LAB & OTHER STUFF lost somewhere

I understand your intent filmdt. You have worked hard on multiple chat boards to increase awareness of heat absorbing films. The discussions are very interesting.

Contextually though there are not many performance differences between some "Neutral Films" and the IR absorbers aside from a 3% SA difference and appearance... A neutral film with a 49% verses a film with a 52% SA is not going to make a drastic difference. It like saying a 55%TSER far underperforms that 58% TSER film... Climate variables will always be different from the laboratory. The Labs cannot account for all of the nuances of every microclimate and HVAC setup in a home nor can they account for the lack of discernment used by a salesman in product selection for given applications where people inhabit the first 6" or less off of the glass.

When you consider that the SHGC values are accounting for convection of absorbed energy, you get a picture about how one product performs compared to another product after the variables of SA have been accounted for. Other factors out of the "control" environment of a laboratory also need to be factored in so that the customer gets the best value for what they are buying. That depends on location, ventilation, view, product drability and a whole host of many other things. All products have limitations and areas that they exell in.

There are a few technological leaps that I can't discuss but suffice it to say that things will continue to evolve because that fact of the matter is that consumers (residential & commercial) are demanding low reflective films similar to how in automotive less reflective, color-stable, and RF-interference free films are in demand. Do all of these products reject the most energy possible? Absolutely not! So can you sell high energy rejecting reflective films to everyone just because it is your mission to do so? You can try, but the demand is going to economically force you to conceed to the fact that reflective films have their place and in many circumstances there is no place for reflective films at all.

Advertising the working component of a film is what it is, be it IR, metal, ceramic... It's advertising. Marketing has to experiment and do their job the best they can just as installers have to experiment and find new ways to do their jobs better. Like you said filmdt, "it's all about learning", but I might add that it is all about learning what the market wants to purchase from you. I have my personal likes and dislikes of what every aspect of the business does and does not do, but just like the rest of us, I can't control it all or even begin to complain or edcucate to anyone even the half of it...



Your film supplying buddies are holding back on you. There is a 2k glass breakage warranty out there with no deductable.

Sure I can sell these type films... except in those neighborhoods that restrict because they only see reflective as opposed to long term savings.... main reason for selling highest performance films is because I can and because I am not out to land every bid/job.

If the prospect isn't interested in the best way to deal with solar energy or the best way to reduce fading, which for them translates into increased energy cost and increased materials replacement cost from poor fade protection, they are free to move on to someone such as yourself. I move on to the next prospect. Win some, lose some, move on.

Here's a slightly modified quote I found of VZLA's:

If you read the post where I found it, you will see I changed the quote some... This is how I sell film, through advisement or suggestion... whether auto, resi, comm, or safety. I was always told my honesty would hinder me as a businessman... I sorry... I find it most difficult to place myself in a situation of selling a person film with a 4-500% mark up and 2-3 times the price of a like product... more so when knowing full well they may have improved results in all around payback using a solar reflective product. That's just me... and the basis for why I post against or discourage the use of film with little to non-existent solar reflectance.

I'm sure those film makers and dreamers who are in this for the long haul are steady working on the magic bullet in terms of solar protection and not seeing it. I like to believe that at the moment it's like trying to get to Mars on today's technology. Who knows... maybe we will see this in our career time.

Daayum... going to have to speak to them about it.

You just know that'll be the next marketing rush to appease? From realistic film warranty to lifetime... next it'll be million dollar coverage, including a freak windstorm loss thrown in here and there.

So what you are saying is that I am being dishonest everytime I sell a cermic film rather than a reflective film that rejects the most solar energy? Wow, that's is mighty presumtuous of you Dave. You are assuming that I or anyone else for that matter does not first sit down and determine what the customer's needs are. That is an awful hard stretch for a person that is not even in retail anymore, don't you think?

The number one rule in successful sales is to listen to the customer and determine what their needs are. It doesn't matter what a person is selling, if he fails in this one simple rule, then he will have a very rough go at it and probably have to move into another part of the industry away from sales.

You are also failing to consider the fact that not all Ceramic films cost as much and have to be sold for as much as Vista Harmony does. Some of them cost about as much as a nice looking DR film, but look much different of course.

And so in my greed you are purporting that I will overlook the needs of a consumer, which would also include their budget, so that I can make a higher profit knowing full well that I can slap a reflective silver film on their windows for better performance and a cheaper price? Well I guess that is always possible but is it probable?

Just like in automotive, the overall look of the product really matters in flatglass. You may be a little insulated from that fact being that your are not out in the field daily talking to flatglass consumers which could explain why you see this as just a homeowner's restriction issue. Who in their right mind is going to purchase a multi million dollar home with a multi million dollar view and the install silver 20% on there because it outperforms a ceramic or an XIR film? Even a 35% bronze will alter the look of some of these homes to the point that it would appear strange at best and still reflect to the interior too much for the consumer's taste. To ignore something like that and steer them into a higher reflective product that would detract the presentation of their home and views would be to fail them as a knowledgable salesperson. IMO this would hinder you as a businessman in my market, even as a rep. I used to sell 35% bronze all day long, it was a win-win situation because the bronze had excellent performance numbers and very low SA. Now people don't like the look of shiny bronze films around here, nor do they like looking out redish-orange glass. There was a certain bronze 33% that I once put on a house and the owner made me take it all off because he didn't like the way it made his home look. So Dave, what does a dealer do when the consumers no longer like the look of the film he sells? Just walk? I've never heard that from a CP rep nor does district sales have that philosophy... far from it, they create a product to fill that demand.

So I'm a litle perplexed at your reasoning that a dealer either walks or is some how not honest if he tries to sell a different product that the consumer wants to buy. We leave our guns at home when we go out selling... no one is going to be forced to buy something that they don't like.

So then this dishonesty would have to include selling products such as Vista VS 60 & 70 as well as Harmony 40 & 41. Gee, who's company makes these products? Anything above 40% vlt would have to be thrown in there as well because most of these products are lacking in solar reflectance. Huper ceramics, Madico ceramis, V-Kool 70, Hilite 70, and all of the others who are following suit as well... So what is a storefront owner to do when he needs a film that is as clear as possible so his customers can see his merchandise but would like to have a resonable amount of energy rejection and UV rejection? "Sorry buddy, it's mirrored film or bust... don't even waste your time because none of these films perform as well as reflective filmls." Wow, how is that ideology going to keep a flatglass dealer account in business? Why do the MFG's like the one you work for make so many different higher vlt neutral films? Is it so us dishonest buck-making con-artists can "land" every job out there or is it becuase there is a demand for certain types of products?

I don't mind discussing each other's philosophies but to assume your integrity is above mine when you done even know me (or rather think you know me) is quite another thing.

As much as you want to teach everyone (without asking them if they want to be taught in the first place) about the nuances of ceramic and XIR energy rejection, you ignore the fact that in many markets these products perform very well. In cases where people are inhabiting the fist 6" of window space it can be as simple as suggesting VS 60 with it's 58% TSER when the customer has to have a non-reflective film. Do you really think I would intentionally mislead someone to go the ceramic route? the VS 60 is higher profit and is even less noticable on the glass. To suggest the latter is lack of experience, not misleading. Your friend that sold some film to Quizno's wasn't thinking straight. 2 years ago I put a bid in on one once for R-20 and corporate shot it down because it wasn't compatible with their master franchise design. R-35? Shot down. N-1040 neutral was approved, but hey, how much SA does that film have and what is it's TSER?

So is this all dishonesty and delusion? It would see more reasonable that there has to be a give and take. To have one thing sometimes requires that you have to give up another. Even the company that you work for makes these products because they don't want to walk away from a sale. So are they misleading consumers too?

Who knows, maybe we'll see another new warranty hit the market now?

this thread has given me a brain freeze

Well... as I find more often than not... I have come across all wrong again.

Nevermind... It seems I will never come across as a tinter with a view of his own... nope... I'm a factory rep banging other films and other tinters.

Yep... that's me... as if you or anyone else, too, know me...

I won't bother you again, VC...

Cheers to ya...

all i can do is

i hate to say this ..but great post V...

Look, I enjoy talking shop and one another's views on the industry with you and what not but I do not enjoy being labeled as someone who misleads my customers or anything close to it. If there is a misunderstanding in this department then chaulk it up to me not knowing you either. I am not asking you to leave me alone, I can agree to disagree with you no problem.

I was in no way being accusatory... at least when I wrote it it wasn't based on call names or saying anyone was a cheat. Like I said... I am misunderstood more than I am understood.

In reality, I am not installing, but I do have my preferences, ideology's...

Let me try another tact...

Bottom line is I, me, cannot sell film at those prices... many do and are successful. It's not that they are cheating, it's I who has no business sense when it comes to setting price for those situations you speak of.

So today, if I were out there selling, I would starve.

Do I know you... no more than you know me...

I just was poking fun those times calling you names that don't fit...

Rereading my earlier post I can see where it sounds way bad.... however I was qualitfying as I wrote that they were my attributes I do as a seller.

Guess it doesn't always sound that way.

All's good...

Man! You guys are getting hot and heavy on this subject.
I'm a Bekaert Panorama guy who sells mostly Sterling 60 and Hilite 70 and am very happy with them. The IRis samples peaked my interest until I looked at the SA numbers. I will not take a risk putting them on IG units in PA. I know nothing about the company Geoshield and if they will stand behind their product.
Anyway BSF has always stood behind me and their product I don't think you can beat them.
Now I'm going to go see how many balls TO drops.
Later

Hey VC... TD...

If you know anyone where you live in a 12 step program... they can let in on how a mind like mine can work someday well and other days not so well.

Today... I pulled a Mel ... not literally, but symbolically...

After four years of in and out of discussion boards I realize what little personality I may have doesn't belong in a place where my ego can be fed one moment and then plunge into the bitterness of guilt and remorse.

Not only do I deal with this I deal with ADD and OCD and the OCD is apparent when I continually post in a subject when it has long since died or been covered to death. To the extent I become obsessed with winning and being right.

Delusions... today... fair assessment...

I have work to do and a long road ahead in attempting to deal with these demons. It serves me no good to be in this environment or any other board for that matter.

Thanks TD for another chance to see that I am wrong about myself. I will live up to my agreement made with you before entering (yet another time). I can't do this any more... it causes to much drama for you, others your board and I in the end am the one with azz on his face.

Filmdit,
I totally agree with VC. It's good to have an interchange with differing views! Makes life much more interesting. Don't be so hard on yourself dude!
We're all dealing with one problem or another.

I know the Magnum 7 mil certifications go through him... I think he may have wrote the Llumar flatglass certification test too.

Yea. SA is way too high. Something even funnier,
Geoshield's IRis 60 = 64% VLT
Geoshield's IRis 70 = 67% VLT

It makes little difference what product you go with, they are both basically the same.
And the all specs don't appear accurate.

Looks like he only offers IRis 60 and IRis 70.
No dye tints, metallic tints, etc... (No darker shaded tints)

This also strikes me as WRONG...

Infra-Red Rejected = 81% for his 64% VLT Product.
He puts in (@ 1000nm) I am not sure what this means, perhaps someone else knows.
But I think that is a theoretical number. His tint is not 1000nm. Therefore, I don't think it has 81% Infra-Red Rejection. Solar Absorption is also way too HIGH! High Solar Absorption = BAD!!!

I say stick with Huper Optik Nano-Ceramic or Madico Advanced Ceramic

I got a question, WHO BUYS THIS STUFF???

That is 1000 nanometers.

Nanometer= One billionth of a meter. The standard unit of measure for wavelengths in the solar spectrum.

1000 nm is the wavelength on the NIR scale that this film filters... it is not the thickness of the film.

for a film that has a VLT of 67% and has a TSER of 54% is pretty good if you ask me...and the absorption rate is 54%...sure its a little high...but not that much more then some of the other ceramic films out there..its just that they display the SA...where some dont have the ballz to.

you are not going to find a film that has a TSER of 54% and be that light of a film(67%)....unless someone wants to correct me on that?

lets see..huper ceramic has a 60 which is really a 58 vlt and has a TSER of 42%


and madico has mac 6000 that is 61 vlt and the TSER is 40%

Who makes the stuff?

Good point, here's a little more to add.

ok...i stand corrected...

And the real kicker... 38% SA

how do they get the total solar reflectance so high on that stuff..Geo is at 9.6 of something like that...and the V 70 is at 38% ..that is where Geo is getting most of its absorbtion ...right?

It's got a fairly low Solar Transmittance 35% and a good Solar Reflectance 27%. That really helps.

VC,
Check out the specs. on Hilite 70...
But, I'm sure you already have...
Wish I could get it wider than 60" though...

That's the bummer... Hilite looks good but 60" max width is the achilles heal of flatglass.

From what I know and haave been taught. Producing 60" XIR is like sending man into orbit, and producing 72" XIR is like sending him to the moon.

I hope they can do something about that soon but realistically I'm told it's cost prohibitive.
What else is tough is that the extra has to be saved on roll or it "fingers" up. That's a pain!

Geos transmitance is at 36....how does VISTA get such a high reflectance?

The stacked silver atoms. I don't know a lot about Geoshield but from the looks of it, they are lacking silver... that's why it is avertised as corrosion resistant. Silver gives great solar reflectance but "the give" is that it has to be edge sealed if you are near a marine environment.