My fellow mmm haters

This mornings first estimate had me at a rather large comm complex. The PM shows me some new glass and some older pre tinted units, He then tells me they would like to inst film on the new to match the existing "MMM" product. I pause for a few seconds, make a somewhat odd face and tell him, Look I inst film every day all day, I will use anything you want me to..........and what you have now is far from my first choice. HMMMM custy says, Why is that? .....Now the door and custys mind are wide open. So I show him the flaws in his old work and explain the benefits of using a mfr that is dedicated to window film and only window film,not other things like scotch tape and post it notes..... Custy is in 100% agreement. After about 15 mins of small talk he issues the p.o. for 3000 sf of work, Thank you VMuch I say. We set the date for inst and as I am ready to leave he says OOOOHH. Those other windows with the "BAD MMM" can we do those as well ?... Absolutlly I say, I will tell you what, I usually charge for removal but we are going to be here anyway so I will only charge for the new film, Great he says there will be a change order on your fax today. And it is !
..

nice! good story, great ingredients! you need an installer??

the sad thing that not every customer understands!

And thats just it... the normal customer will never understand until we are knowledgeable enough to explain it to them!!! I hang 3M with success as a sub, but when the sales are mine, 3M is my last choice!!!

Wolfe, I have 2 tinters and 2 prep/cleaners now. I need to keep them going, I do appreciate the offer.

No problem whatsover! If you ever do need any assistance, please feel free to keep me in mind! Im sure a few here can vouch for me! Keep up the good work!

Wolfe pm me your info

Nice to see you pointed out flaws and didn't just fabricate issues. Proof is in the pudding and thats prob why you won him over. Nice work!

I'll vouch for Wolfe.. he's TERRIBLE!!!



Hahaha.

Kidding...

Steevie Wonder and Ray Charles could have done a better job than the clowns that did it the first time. It is incredible what some companys / installers will let go. And the custy is ok with it! I guess if the co / inst figure the name recognition can cary them they are ok. Jeeez have some pride

Oh shiat!

+1,000

That is what blows my mind the most. I see what others have done, and I think wow... I dunno.. I ask a premium for my services.... which that being the case, I sure as heck do the very best I can do. That way, at the end of the job, I can take pride in my craft.


-R

what does it have to do with 3m? sounds like bad workmanship to me. what film did you use?

I have posted a few threads here on comm film, as this is 95% of our business. My co is small in relation to some others I bid aganst. However I am on EVERY project, and have set high standards for the end product. Most of the "big boys" have sales people that dont even know what side of the film sticks, Installers who have little or no interest in spending any extra time to do anything but slam it up. ( If you are being paid by SF for your labor, your motovation is to put up as much as you can as fast as you can ) I am not saying they cant do good work , Its likley they just dont need to. In most cases the pm or gc never really scrutinizes the final install. Now I am not claiming to be perfect or the best etc etc etc. There is always going to be something to pick at somewhere, But my feeling is that if another tinter looks at my work in the future, The word HACK should not come to mind. Sorry for all the rambling

i can't stand 3M any more than the next guy but sounds to me like it was just a crap tintjob.

Im sorry I dont know how to caption the question and reply in the same box. To answer your question we are going to use Madico sunscape dg55. As far as the film we are going to replace, His old invoice stated it was RE 50. MMM's garden variety neutral grey. The film was almost 8 yrs old, but I swear it looked like the installer dropped it on the floor and put it up anyway. I SH*T you not

but that's still installer error...not an issue with the film itself.

hit the 'reply quote' button of the post you want to quote, then you can reply.

what the hell? you saying im not "knowledgeable"?

The film itself was lifting from crud at the edges, As far film failure, it did appear to have distortion when viewed from the side. Did it need to be changed today?......Prob not, But custy wants it replaced and who am I to say no.

'on angle' issues with 3M.... weird

Yea, whooda thunk it ! PS.Hey thanks for the tip on captioning

I thought only the best of the best were allowed to use mmm And as I always like to point out they don't even make their own film Saw master rolls marked mmm at Solar Gard plant in California a few years ago even when they tried to hide it so why not just by from the peeps making it
guess you could call me a hater
Cheers

people ask for 3M, i am happy to install it for them. and they pay a pretty penny for it.

One thing that also can be used in sales aganst MMM dealers is this. Well Mr/ Mrs custy, If that mmm STUFF is really what you want ,we can supply it for you. I then tell them if it was my home or office or whatever. I would not use it. Again this opens the door for more conversation. So mr tint salesman tell me why ? At that point you should have your pitch very well polished. When it comes time for the close, If you have provided all the facts the custy needs, the sale should be yours. Another thing some people do is short sale themselves, By this I mean, When the sale eventually comes down to $, If you give them the different options MMM MDCO CP whatever. It can provide a sense of security for custy if you are the HIGHEST bid, Yes I said HIGHEST. If you tell custy someone elses film is more just because, they may think its more because its better. Try something like , We could do the project with MMM for (say ---.00) or we could use a more stable film like (insert your preferance here) for ---.00 and there would be no future problems. Just a thought, Hope it helps some of you out there

So what is the name of film that you think is so superior to mmm that you use all the time?

Most of what we do is contract spec. The arch will spec the product and we will supply and inst. I am not partial to any certain film mfr, They all have their own issues. My point is this, If you are out on a sales call and you know everyone in the world is bidding it, Right off the bat you know MMM is going to be ALL THE MONEY, In most cases COMM PM GC or SUPERS want the best film out there and if it is only 5 7 10 % more for the best they just may go for it. I never want to get a job because I wes the cheapest. When I sell to the everyday custy, The product I sell them is the best out there period. Weather its mmm mdc llu sg whatever. Its the best that you can buy. If you dont believe it yourself the custy never will .One of the most important things you can do when making a sale is just listen to the custy..... They will tell you everything you need to know .

I worked for a 3M dealer 4 years ago (for a brief period) that has been in biz for nearly 20 years. Ive installed quite a bit of 3M. I found that while installing the film, if I missed a portion with water still behind the film while around it was squegeed, the adhesive smeared when I went over the spot with water and drug it into a squegeed section. Ive never seen another film do this. When it happened, you had to scrap the film and start again. I have also been on a few warranty jobs that were maybe 6-8 years old and the film was in poor condition. I think the film that I saw issues with was the NV line.

Good to see another Madico user. Great adhesive on Madico.

MDC cdx adhesive is user frendly, Im not a huge fan of the ps on the mac film, I also like lulu da. Like I said I am not a die hard fan of any mfr. I even like some MMM products.........I just cant think of any right this second...............HAAAAAAA

please stop posting prices.

I agree with most of your reply as I to do many jobs that a certain film is in the specs and I will apply the film they want, same as if I was doing a film graphic if that is what they want then that is what I will do.i have installed almost all films known to mankind and sum twice but they just have a different name..

Yea if you been at it 24 then you seen just about all of it. MFR can come out with the latest and greatest but when it comes right down to it...... Its still just stickin plastic on windows !

[quote name='TintJunkie' date='Aug 20 2009, 05:14 PM' post='711804']
I worked for a 3M dealer 4 years ago (for a brief period) that has been in biz for nearly 20 years. Ive installed quite a bit of 3M. I found that while installing the film, if I missed a portion with water still behind the film while around it was squegeed, the adhesive smeared when I went over the spot with water and drug it into a squegeed section. Ive never seen another film do this. When it happened, you had to scrap the film and start again. I have also been on a few warranty jobs that were maybe 6-8 years old and the film was in poor condition. I think the film that I saw issues with was the NV line.

Good to see another Madico user. Great adhesive on Madico.
[/quot


the nv film 4 years ago had an overcoat when the liner peeled. when not wet enough it could streak but this had nothing to do with the adhesive. we've been putting up nv since day 1.

Kind of funny, I saw film being produced a few years ago in a JDS Uniphase plant in CA. as we were tinting the building. When I asked the manager we dealt with what it was, he said they produced film for mmm for window application. But, all the mmm boys will try to tell ya different. WE know the truth!!!!

That's the wonderful mmm PS adhesive. S Gard does it too.....

i understand what you trying to say, but once again mmm custy are willilng to pay for more for the name. that means more profit for you. i don't understand why you would not want that as a business man, profit is everything. same work no matter what.
a buddy of mine did a house here in socal with mmm prestige total cost to custy almost $5x,---.xx. we all prefer to work with certain films, but i don't understand how ignorant you can be with all the money your missing on, showing them comparable films when you profit is more for mmm.
if the custy ask for mmm give to them.
as for myself, i use to like to install cp,lintec,bekeart,hanita and of course mmm if they ask for it. i use to apply the correct film for the right job, unless the custy wants says otherwise.

Its useless tryin to explain it here. Peeps here will open up a burger joint and try to sell everyone hot dogs because they like them better.

Why sell them what they want? Ill sell them what I want.

wonder if 3M is reading these boards

I have never carried mmm nor installed it so I cannot speak on the process of selling or installing it. But I have stripped a good deal of it, seen a good deal of it go bad, and heard stories about it. When it comes down to it I don't care how much the customer thinks of it I don't want my reputation on it. As far as the profit goes, if they are willing to pay more just so they can say the got mmm on their windows then they will be willing to go with Huper Optik Ceramics, they just don't know it till I explain it to them. So I make the profit and don't have to stake my reputation on mmm. Luckily here in Texas we don't get a lot of requests for mmm, for the most part customers already have a bad taste for it. The Texas summers weed out the bad films fairly quick.

keep the haters comin

"if you dont got haters, youre doin it WRONG."

There's two kinds of haters; the kind that hate something or someone because they are better than them or their product or the type that hate because it really does suck. It is good that you don't discriminate between the two.

i got some 3M

people just dont want to pay for it when i give them my price for it

I understand your point. The problem is 3M has a bad rep with those that have used it. Customers dont know the reputation of the FILM, but I agree they associate 3M with all the other products. I dont know if its true, but I was told the window film division of 3M only makes up 1% or so of all revenues. Many other mannys are 100% dedicated. Why would you want to install a product that you know may not last just b/c of brand recognition. Not only that, the 3M name doesnt mean higher profits. You can only sell what the market will bear. Here, I have been up against a 3M dealer that is actually cheaper than me, and I use Madico. I dont think if the 3M dealer wanted more he could get it.

So I agree with your post to a certain degree. I think people would be willing to spend more money for a product like Huper and VKool given enough information about those products, and how they can out perform what they see as a brand name.

people will pay. come on... NASA uses 3M products.............

you just gotta know what everyone is saying bad about 3M. and they all say the same thing "they arent a window tint company."

Is that b/c you have to "pad" the price so much knowing you will be back for warranty work??

come on really? have people even heard of huper and vkool? NO. i admit their products are great, but you gotta come with a specific sales game to get that job. they do it and nobody has even heard of those brands. think about a tight sales game AND you are using the only brand people know, 3M. i offer more than just 3M, and i stress that they come with a manufacturers warranty. we warranty the work but it all comes from the manufacturer. so even if the film goes bad they know its 3M's deal, and we do the service. it doesnt hurt our name. a customer already thinks that you gotta be good to be able to sell 3M, and they are willing to pay the premium price.

however in this economy selling this stuff at a higher price is a little tougher. thats why u have alternate films that can still compete with others cheaper prices. but the customers still know that u r good because you have the ability to apply 3M.

you dont have to sell only 3M. set up an account pick up some samples. pitch it at your next estimate and just see what they say. lay out the samples and they immediately go for the 3M. it wont cost you nothing. I DARE YOU

Yeah, really. The name 3M does not mean better, and its not. Do people perk up about it? Sure. All I have to do is ask the customer what they know about 3M window films. They dont know jack about them other than they make post-it notes. So, why would that make it an easier sale. There is still a certain amount of information that every dealer talks about to sell their film. A 3M dealer still has to do it. I would say the reverse is true, I think its easier to turn a potential customer off to 3M. A Huper dealer can plop down a spec chart next to a 3M spec chart and say "boo ya". ALL mfg's offer the gimmick warranty...and they are ALL the same. So why wouldnt the customer go with a better performing product with a better track record that offers the same warranty?

I dont want to sell a product that will haunt me 5-10 years down the road. I wouldnt sell 3M to my worst enemy. If they immediately "go for it" I will immediately tell them why "x" product would be better.