Three strikes and you're out!

Customtinting · May 26, 2008

:boogagay2: Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

V,

This is not the first time I have heard of this one. Many shops that I know were using it complained not just of shorted cut rolls, but shorted FULL rolls. and yuou ask how they canmake money doing it? Short each roll 2-3 feet, and every 50 rolls makes alot of profit. They are relatively busy, so I would venture to say that they send out hundreds of rolls per day. And lets not forget the marketing campaign they were doing, half off your first order!!! I know of a shop in Phoenix that ordered $250,000.00 worth of film(only paid $125,000). Short them 2-3 on each and thats definately alot of film!!!! With giving away so much film, they have to make it up somewhere, nothing is really free!!!

Even if that where the case, shorting 2-8ft off of a 100' roll screws the MFG/dist because what do you do with 8' left on a 100' roll?

V, manufacturers don't roll down off of 100 foot rolls for 100 foot rolls!!! they come off of master rolls. If they short 2-3 feet off of every 100 foot roll coming off of a master roll, that amounts to tons. Then shorting cut rolls, even more. even 1 foot per roll comes to a great amount. As I said, I use a film handler and mark the ladder it is mounted on for each pull every pull is within 1/4" at the most. adding up 1/4"per pull or even 1/2 " per pull, when I did windows that were shy of 10 feet on a job, how would I come up over 4 feet short on a roll when I only had to pull 10 times??? not possible. I should have come up with about 3 feet left on the roll. Thats 9 foot,9 inches per pull, would have left 30 inches, minus 1/2 inche per, or 10 inches, that is still 20 inches REMAINING, not short by 4 feet(48inches). Thats a 60 inch gap. Impossile. and happened on more than one roll on that job alone. This is a snakes way of doing business and when called on it, they had no response. My advice to all is to stay away from this company.

May 27, 2008

Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

how do we know that they dont cut it off a larger master roll?.

do we know where he is getting it from?

Have you seen a master? Who's gonna wack 25' off of one of those?

They usually take 100's off of a master and ship them out the 100's to distribution where they can be rolled down to 25's and 50's. It is easier and quicker to cut off of the 100's.

Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

V,

This is not the first time I have heard of this one. Many shops that I know were using it complained not just of shorted cut rolls, but shorted FULL rolls. and yuou ask how they canmake money doing it? Short each roll 2-3 feet, and every 50 rolls makes alot of profit. They are relatively busy, so I would venture to say that they send out hundreds of rolls per day. And lets not forget the marketing campaign they were doing, half off your first order!!! I know of a shop in Phoenix that ordered $250,000.00 worth of film(only paid $125,000). Short them 2-3 on each and thats definately alot of film!!!! With giving away so much film, they have to make it up somewhere, nothing is really free!!!

Even if that where the case, shorting 2-8ft off of a 100' roll screws the MFG/dist because what do you do with 8' left on a 100' roll?

V, manufacturers don't roll down off of 100 foot rolls for 100 foot rolls!!! they come off of master rolls. If they short 2-3 feet off of every 100 foot roll coming off of a master roll, that amounts to tons. Then shorting cut rolls, even more. even 1 foot per roll comes to a great amount. As I said, I use a film handler and mark the ladder it is mounted on for each pull every pull is within 1/4" at the most. adding up 1/4"per pull or even 1/2 " per pull, when I did windows that were shy of 10 feet on a job, how would I come up over 4 feet short on a roll when I only had to pull 10 times??? not possible. I should have come up with about 3 feet left on the roll. Thats 9 foot,9 inches per pull, would have left 30 inches, minus 1/2 inche per, or 10 inches, that is still 20 inches REMAINING, not short by 4 feet(48inches). Thats a 60 inch gap. Impossile. and happened on more than one roll on that job alone. This is a snakes way of doing business and when called on it, they had no response. My advice to all is to stay away from this company.

I believe I explained what comes off a master, and a master is not 100' long that for sure. The last time I saw a master it went by me on a forklift... from these large rolls come the 100' rolls that are shipped to distribution. When we place and order for a 25' or 50' roll distribution rolls down a 100' roll on a machine that is calibrated to accurately measure the linear footage. It is not a stinkin Filmhandler and a tape measurer! If this machine is not calibrated correctly or the operator cannot count, a mistake can result.

My point is if this is a great conspiracy to steal from their customers, the easier and less risky way to make a buck would be to increase pricing. Why resort to easily proven dishonesty when you can pull off the same result legitimately? And what really makes this absurd is when you consider that shorting 2ft off of every roll down that comes off of those 100' rolls only raises the chances that film gets returned and ultimately it leaves up to 8' left on that original roll. What do they do with 8 feet or less? Why increase the likelihood that you will have to cover all of the shipping and extra work to make a shorted order right? It makes no sense to take that much risk, the reward can come an easier way. :thumb

Customtinting · May 27, 2008

Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

how do we know that they dont cut it off a larger master roll?.

do we know where he is getting it from?

Have you seen a master? Who's gonna wack 25' off of one of those?

They usually take 100's off of a master and ship them out the 100's to distribution where they can be rolled down to 25's and 50's. It is easier and quicker to cut off of the 100's.

Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

V,

This is not the first time I have heard of this one. Many shops that I know were using it complained not just of shorted cut rolls, but shorted FULL rolls. and yuou ask how they canmake money doing it? Short each roll 2-3 feet, and every 50 rolls makes alot of profit. They are relatively busy, so I would venture to say that they send out hundreds of rolls per day. And lets not forget the marketing campaign they were doing, half off your first order!!! I know of a shop in Phoenix that ordered $250,000.00 worth of film(only paid $125,000). Short them 2-3 on each and thats definately alot of film!!!! With giving away so much film, they have to make it up somewhere, nothing is really free!!!

Even if that where the case, shorting 2-8ft off of a 100' roll screws the MFG/dist because what do you do with 8' left on a 100' roll?

V, manufacturers don't roll down off of 100 foot rolls for 100 foot rolls!!! they come off of master rolls. If they short 2-3 feet off of every 100 foot roll coming off of a master roll, that amounts to tons. Then shorting cut rolls, even more. even 1 foot per roll comes to a great amount. As I said, I use a film handler and mark the ladder it is mounted on for each pull every pull is within 1/4" at the most. adding up 1/4"per pull or even 1/2 " per pull, when I did windows that were shy of 10 feet on a job, how would I come up over 4 feet short on a roll when I only had to pull 10 times??? not possible. I should have come up with about 3 feet left on the roll. Thats 9 foot,9 inches per pull, would have left 30 inches, minus 1/2 inche per, or 10 inches, that is still 20 inches REMAINING, not short by 4 feet(48inches). Thats a 60 inch gap. Impossile. and happened on more than one roll on that job alone. This is a snakes way of doing business and when called on it, they had no response. My advice to all is to stay away from this company.

I believe I explained what comes off a master, and a master is not 100' long that for sure. The last time I saw a master it went by me on a forklift... from these large rolls come the 100' rolls that are shipped to distribution. When we place and order for a 25' or 50' roll distribution rolls down a 100' roll on a machine that is calibrated to accurately measure the linear footage. It is not a stinkin Filmhandler and a tape measurer! If this machine is not calibrated correctly or the operator cannot count, a mistake can result.

My point is if this is a great conspiracy to steal from their customers, the easier and less risky way to make a buck would be to increase pricing. Why resort to easily proven dishonesty when you can pull off the same result legitimately? And what really makes this absurd is when you consider that shorting 2ft off of every roll down that comes off of those 100' rolls only raises the chances that film gets returned and ultimately it leaves up to 8' left on that original roll. What do they do with 8 feet or less? Why increase the likelihood that you will have to cover all of the shipping and extra work to make a shorted order right? It makes no sense to take that much risk, the reward can come an easier way.

Actually, you never discussed master rolls, that issue was brought in by me. And if, as you say, the machine is not calibrated or the operator cannot count, this would have been corrected pretty quickly, when many have brought it to thier attention. However, the issue did not seem to be corrected, since it still persists. Mistakes do happen, but should have been corrected long ago, since I brought it to their attention, along with other shops I know, long ago. Yes, master rolls are much longer than 100', but many companies who manufacture AND distribute, roll down the film in the same location. Therefore, it is feasable that shorting rolls is a plausible option. Especially for a company that gives away so much free film to it's customers. It you do the calculation, consider a master roll is 10,000 linear feet. Short each roll by 2 feet, you end up with 200 linear feet left EXACTLY. This means now waste by shorting 2 feet per roll. There is no 8 feet left over. I am not sayin there is a great conspiracy, but when you have multiple rolls go out short, there is an issue. AND when the company is made aware of it, and no response comes back, nor is the issue corrected on future purchases, someone is dropping the ball.

And your statement pertaining to the use of a film handler. If used correctly, you can exactly measure a roll of film by counting each pull. Especially when each pull is the same length. Pulling only 10 times from a roll, at 9 feet 9 inches, there should be a minimum left on the roll (giving for even 2 inches extra per pull, that leaves a foot of film. The rolls I used came up 4 feet short on the final pull. Maybe you are not skilled in the use of a film handler, but I have used one for 10 years and can pull from one to pretty much exact measurements. If there should have been approx. 12 inches left on the roll, and the last pull came up 4 feet short, there is a great problem there. It was on more than one roll of the same job also. You may have your opinion, as do I, but most film users do not pull exact or even close(pulling from a box) and would never notice a couple feet short on a roll. Who is going to roll out 100 feet of film to be sure it is correct?? The answer is no one! It is not easy to catch 2 feet short per roll. And since they are already at an upper level of price range, they can hardly afford to increase their prices and stay competitive. There may be no great conspiracy, as you say, but there is a problem when the company sands out film to many who have found less than the stated length, and have'nt corrected the issue.(I found thid problem 18 months ago and notified them then, and it seems to still persist.

Oh, yes, Film handler don't STINK, as you so eloquently wrote. They are a very useful tool in tracking and properly cutting film!

May 27, 2008

but many companies who manufacture AND distribute, roll down the film in the same location.

Any proof of that?

Customtinting · May 27, 2008

but many companies who manufacture AND distribute, roll down the film in the same location.

Any proof of that?

and by proof, you are looking for??? Madico, Manufactured AND rolled down to 100 fot rolls at the plant in Woburn , MA, Uh...same with Sungard, Johnson, Llu and so on. Then, many have OUTSIDE distributors who do sell and produce cut rolls. This is not true for Suntek, who produce and distribute their own film from the same location, as they informed me.

May 27, 2008

So you're saying distributors roll down master rolls?

Customtinting · May 27, 2008

and, Dark, don't you use a film handler??? Would it be your opinion that you would waste 4 feet of film when pulling 10 times from a roll?

May 27, 2008

Hey, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

I don't think they would intentionally short anyone off of a 100' roll. By accident...........VERY likely. Keep in mind, the people we talk to on the phone are NOT the people in the back room boxing, slitting, rolling down, and shipping. They aren't even washed out window tinters. They're washed out McDonald's employees.

Now if distributors have access to rolls larger than 100' sitting in the back room......I can understand them short changing people if they really wanted to.

Now I doubt reputable manufacturers would do it on purpose because it would come back to bite them in the ass badly. But bad runs happen. When I was at my ORACAL training class they had it happen with a batch of vinyl I guess. Someone forgot to reset the machine for the new material and instead of 50 meter rolls it was cutting 50 yard rolls. So mistakes can happen like that.

May 27, 2008

Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

how do we know that they dont cut it off a larger master roll?.

do we know where he is getting it from?

Have you seen a master? Who's gonna wack 25' off of one of those?

They usually take 100's off of a master and ship them out the 100's to distribution where they can be rolled down to 25's and 50's. It is easier and quicker to cut off of the 100's.

Why would they want to short dealers on a partial roll of film? It causes more harm than good. They roll down off of 100' rolls... so for example let's say that they are trying to stick it to you as some suggest. So they give you 22 feet instead of 25 feet. Now what does that do to their 100' roll that will continue to be broken down into either one 50 footer and one 25 footer or three 25 footers. Someone is going to get extra while others get hosed! For what, a leftover 8 feet off of every 100 foot roll? Come on!!! Now why do that on purpose? How can they make a boatload of money from shortchanging dealers 2 feet here and there on roll downs with cheap commodity film? They shoot themselves in the foot and screw up their inventory, that doesn't make sense.
I'm not saying stick with ST but I would venture to guess that the person running the roll down cutter is not paying attention. And when you sell cheap film, you have to hire cheap labor to do the mundane things like operate the slitter machine for roll downs. What do you expect is going to happen?

V,

This is not the first time I have heard of this one. Many shops that I know were using it complained not just of shorted cut rolls, but shorted FULL rolls. and yuou ask how they canmake money doing it? Short each roll 2-3 feet, and every 50 rolls makes alot of profit. They are relatively busy, so I would venture to say that they send out hundreds of rolls per day. And lets not forget the marketing campaign they were doing, half off your first order!!! I know of a shop in Phoenix that ordered $250,000.00 worth of film(only paid $125,000). Short them 2-3 on each and thats definately alot of film!!!! With giving away so much film, they have to make it up somewhere, nothing is really free!!!

Even if that where the case, shorting 2-8ft off of a 100' roll screws the MFG/dist because what do you do with 8' left on a 100' roll?

V, manufacturers don't roll down off of 100 foot rolls for 100 foot rolls!!! they come off of master rolls. If they short 2-3 feet off of every 100 foot roll coming off of a master roll, that amounts to tons. Then shorting cut rolls, even more. even 1 foot per roll comes to a great amount. As I said, I use a film handler and mark the ladder it is mounted on for each pull every pull is within 1/4" at the most. adding up 1/4"per pull or even 1/2 " per pull, when I did windows that were shy of 10 feet on a job, how would I come up over 4 feet short on a roll when I only had to pull 10 times??? not possible. I should have come up with about 3 feet left on the roll. Thats 9 foot,9 inches per pull, would have left 30 inches, minus 1/2 inche per, or 10 inches, that is still 20 inches REMAINING, not short by 4 feet(48inches). Thats a 60 inch gap. Impossile. and happened on more than one roll on that job alone. This is a snakes way of doing business and when called on it, they had no response. My advice to all is to stay away from this company.

I believe I explained what comes off a master, and a master is not 100' long that for sure. The last time I saw a master it went by me on a forklift... from these large rolls come the 100' rolls that are shipped to distribution. When we place and order for a 25' or 50' roll distribution rolls down a 100' roll on a machine that is calibrated to accurately measure the linear footage. It is not a stinkin Filmhandler and a tape measurer! If this machine is not calibrated correctly or the operator cannot count, a mistake can result.

My point is if this is a great conspiracy to steal from their customers, the easier and less risky way to make a buck would be to increase pricing. Why resort to easily proven dishonesty when you can pull off the same result legitimately? And what really makes this absurd is when you consider that shorting 2ft off of every roll down that comes off of those 100' rolls only raises the chances that film gets returned and ultimately it leaves up to 8' left on that original roll. What do they do with 8 feet or less? Why increase the likelihood that you will have to cover all of the shipping and extra work to make a shorted order right? It makes no sense to take that much risk, the reward can come an easier way.

Actually, you never discussed master rolls, that issue was brought in by me. And if, as you say, the machine is not calibrated or the operator cannot count, this would have been corrected pretty quickly, when many have brought it to thier attention. However, the issue did not seem to be corrected, since it still persists. Mistakes do happen, but should have been corrected long ago, since I brought it to their attention, along with other shops I know, long ago. Yes, master rolls are much longer than 100', but many companies who manufacture AND distribute, roll down the film in the same location. Therefore, it is feasable that shorting rolls is a plausible option. Especially for a company that gives away so much free film to it's customers. It you do the calculation, consider a master roll is 10,000 linear feet. Short each roll by 2 feet, you end up with 200 linear feet left EXACTLY. This means now waste by shorting 2 feet per roll. There is no 8 feet left over. I am not sayin there is a great conspiracy, but when you have multiple rolls go out short, there is an issue. AND when the company is made aware of it, and no response comes back, nor is the issue corrected on future purchases, someone is dropping the ball.

And your statement pertaining to the use of a film handler. If used correctly, you can exactly measure a roll of film by counting each pull. Especially when each pull is the same length. Pulling only 10 times from a roll, at 9 feet 9 inches, there should be a minimum left on the roll (giving for even 2 inches extra per pull, that leaves a foot of film. The rolls I used came up 4 feet short on the final pull. Maybe you are not skilled in the use of a film handler, but I have used one for 10 years and can pull from one to pretty much exact measurements. If there should have been approx. 12 inches left on the roll, and the last pull came up 4 feet short, there is a great problem there. It was on more than one roll of the same job also. You may have your opinion, as do I, but most film users do not pull exact or even close(pulling from a box) and would never notice a couple feet short on a roll. Who is going to roll out 100 feet of film to be sure it is correct?? The answer is no one! It is not easy to catch 2 feet short per roll. And since they are already at an upper level of price range, they can hardly afford to increase their prices and stay competitive. There may be no great conspiracy, as you say, but there is a problem when the company sands out film to many who have found less than the stated length, and have'nt corrected the issue.(I found thid problem 18 months ago and notified them then, and it seems to still persist.

Oh, yes, Film handler don't STINK, as you so eloquently wrote. They are a very useful tool in tracking and properly cutting film!

Actually, TG brought up the master then I chimed in before you. Do you even read the other posts? :dunno

Have you even seen a Film Slitter with a Linear Measurer? A 10k ft master is not going to fit on the machines that most dist's use and it surely isn't going to fit on a Film Handler. Try it and that would stink.

There are only a few MFG's distributing direct that could cut 50's and 25's off of their masters and who of them wants to slow down production and increase the bulk dimension of a shipment without increasing sold footage? It doesn't make financial sense.

Your equation works out to quite a bit of film. 200' extra is a lot of money, but again, is shorting at least 100 boxes (100' ea) or even more 50' boxes, and even more 25' boxes worth the pay off. Let's say you get at least a 30% return and replacement rate... how profitable is that?

May 27, 2008

I have had this happen to me as well!!! They always send me 25 foot for no charge but its a hassel!! Luckily I precut my home windows a couple of days before the job so I dont get on the job and get it!