True Black Changing to True Brown

addicted to tint · December 24, 2010

Well, I finally saw my first TB car back yesterday. I had tinted 2 back windows for the guy in 20 TB April 2010. Car came in today to go ahead and tint the 2 fronts. It was noticeably brown when I saw it, more than what I was expecting. I put some 15 ATC CH on the front and it was more brown than the ATC. I rolled the window down in the back to see if maybe I was just remembering it being more of a black color, but as I suspected it was more of a black color along the top. I was thinking about tinting the 2 back doors for the customer to keep it all matching, but I was in a bit of a hurry and since I needed the time, I went ahead and didn't say anything. I'm curious to see this car next year.

it's surprising the caliber of shops that give this stuff a shot.

Eh, for me I have some dealers that I sit smack dab in the middle of (pretty much every major brand) who refuse to pay more than what they have for the last 10 years. as we all know, film has gone up quite a bit in 10 years. I tried it as a way to make one part of my business a bit more profitable. I am upping dealer price Jan 1. I feel now I am comfortable enough with the amount of retail work I do that I will not need to rely as heavily on dealer work to fill the schedule.

Yeah, I knew it was an exception to your usual standards. I think the only safe way to use the stuff is a real short term warranty (months) if you need to go that route. The point I make is the guys that brag they have no issues with it, sell it to all their customers as their main line talking it up all the time, screwing up the industry when the consumers experience the failures having believed what they were told during the sell process.

EWF · December 24, 2010

this almost matched up to ATC

Similar pigments. Makes sense.

-Howard

The ///Man · December 24, 2010

Eh, I don't think you get it though. In 8 months time the film has seen a fairly drastic change in color. This somewhat contrasts what is represented here with all of the talk about testing. It would be nice if a 3 year film looks nice for 3 years, not looks like trash in 3 years and NEEDS replacing. I guess that is the difference between what a company like me and a manufacturer expect out of the film. I have some friends that I did in SG HP Charcoal 6-7 years ago that I see pretty regularly and it still looks decent, I have some friends with cars in other films that still look decent in 4-5 years with other lower lines of manufacturers, 8 months time seems very short to be that noticeable. STD was another one, 11 months out it was starting to turn, but still not as bad as the TB I saw on that car. Why can't we all just be honest with what happens before people like myself chance our reputations on trying new things. I just had a friend in with some 15 ADC Advantage that everyone says is horrible that is now 2 years old and still pretty good other than some very faint fading. To be honest of every film I have ever used, I was very surprised to see the True Black start turning bad this early with as much as people talk about it. I'm sorry to say, it really let me down.

EWF · December 24, 2010

This somewhat contrasts what is represented here with all of the talk about testing.

Not at all. We see it in the testing. The point is how well it holds up compared to other non-CS constructions. We also see a continuous improvement in this aspect of the product.

If you spend enough time reading these boards, you are going to find examples of the most expensive USA branded products failing prematurely. You will also find installers that have been using the least expensive single ply color mounting adhesive films over long periods without regret.

Given the part of the country you're in and the fact that you are doing so much dealer work, I completely your decision to use CS films only. At the same time, non-CS films outsell CS on a sq/ft basis worldwide. Customers want choices. TB is not intended as a substitute for ATC, QDP or any other films in that category.

In previous posts, I described a practical example of how the least expensive single ply color adhesive films could outlast a film like ATC or QDP. Given the number of variables, there is no scientific basis to pinning a "3 Year" or a "5 Year" or a "7 Year" longevity label on any film. Case in point: My friend "Pacific Islander" will attest that virtually every film will start to exhibit signs of failure in his area beginning at the 3 year mark. In addition, every single film we insert into our QUV is destroyed given sufficient time.

The best "candidates" for a film like TB are installers who are already using non-CS, clean removal adhesive films and are looking for a better color, longevity and pricing. If you are a Llumar dealer (as you are) something in our Global range or the EWF Classic Series is better suited for you. We would never represent TB as a substitute for your ATC.

It's all about choice. It's all about knowing characteristics. inherent strengths and limitations of any film you are using (be it EWF or otherwise). If your expectations are in line with a films capabilities, everything works.

-Howard

addicted to tint · December 24, 2010

break down what the difference in cost is going to be with the ATC and absorb it or cover it by adding $5 to the bill.

This is a good point. We agree.

According to our math, it costs $7.22 per vehicle (on average) to upgrade a customer to an EWF Color Stable construction (which is much still less than Llumar BTW). It's all about choice. Many of our customers want CS only - no argument there. But if you are going to offer CS & Non-CS films as part of a Good/Better/Best program, TB is an excellent choice.

TB is not Llumar and it's not Global. That's not a fair comparison and these films enter the market at completely different price points. TB should be compared only to it's not CS peers and in that respect, it really shines. We are now on the third revision of the product and it continues to improve and gain customers. The latest production run featured enhancements to the initial tack strength as well as the color durability.

If you are looking to incorporate a non-CS film into your line, consider TB. If you are CS only type dealer, that's great too. But don't compare TB to CS films like Global and Llumar. Non CS films have been around for decades and will be here well into the future. When judging any non-CS film (EWF or otherwise), compare it only to it's peers. Comparing any non-CS construction to a CS is not an apples-to-apples contest. Nor is it meant to be.

-Howard

"Much less than LLumar" - :trustme

If I purchase the 36" state legal VLT LLumar ATC I pay $20 more than your comparable 36" 1.5 CS NR film. Maybe a lot to some, but not me. It equals to about $3 a car give or take. If the ATC gives me warranty issues later I'll receive original invoice amount reimbursement, instaead of enough replacement film to fix the failure like your program. If I choose to participate in the co-op program the price difference is even less in my eyes.

Not trying to single your line or you out but YOU put in your response a direct comparison. I think the price difference, all things considered, is minimal.

Many suppliers are going good/better/best as discussed with an entire color stable line. This is a great way to go for the entire industry. There will always be enough adhesive failure out there, why continue with the color change options anymore?

EWF · December 25, 2010

Hi Addicted,

I accept that. $20 less is in line with our research, but may be as high as $60 for some dealers depending upon their volume. For a shop that uses $35-$50k/year it translates to $4,500-$9,000 / year. That's a lot of money to my way of thinking.

Regardless of the amount paid for the film, anyone who has taken the decision to go with Llumar ATC, Global or one of the EWF Classic Series films has made a good decision. These are the top dyed films in the industry right now.

Our Classic 1.5 does carry a comprehensive CS warranty which covers both material and labor. To date, EWF has not been notified of a single longitudinal failure related to the color or the adhesive on any of the films in the Classic line. Also, Our co-op program is the most hassle free, anti red tape, anti corporate run-around program in the industry. Just fax us a copy of the advertisement and the invoice and the credit will be on your account within 1-2 business days.

You can't construct a good/better/best program with CS coverage throughout. If you put CS coverage on your least expensive line, your revenues would drop 15-30% within a short period of time when a significant percentage of your customer base migrates to the least expensive CS construction you have in your line. As far as adhesive failure, we don't see it at all in the QUV for the EWF line, and rarely for any other manufacturer. The adhesives in use throughout the industry all come from a short list of vendors. The more modern fully automated coater/lamiators do a superb job of applying and curing it with a high degree of accuracy and consistency.

-Howard

addicted to tint · December 25, 2010

Hi Addicted,
I accept that. $20 less is in line with our research, but may be as high as $60 for some dealers depending upon their volume. For a shop that uses $35-$50k/year it translates to $4,500-$9,000 / year. That's a lot of money to my way of thinking.

Regardless of the amount paid for the film, anyone who has taken the decision to go with Llumar ATC, Global or one of the EWF Classic Series films has made a good decision. These are the top dyed films in the industry right now.

Our Classic 1.5 does carry a comprehensive CS warranty which covers both material and labor. To date, EWF has not been notified of a single longitudinal failure related to the color or the adhesive on any of the films in the Classic line. Also, Our co-op program is the most hassle free, anti red tape, anti corporate run-around program in the industry. Just fax us a copy of the advertisement and the invoice and the credit will be on your account within 1-2 business days.

You can't construct a good/better/best program with CS coverage throughout. If you put CS coverage on your least expensive line, your revenues would drop 15-30% within a short period of time when a significant percentage of your customer base migrates to the least expensive CS construction you have in your line. As far as adhesive failure, we don't see it at all in the QUV for the EWF line, and rarely for any other manufacturer. The adhesives in use throughout the industry all come from a short list of vendors. The more modern fully automated coater/lamiators do a superb job of applying and curing it with a high degree of accuracy and consistency.

-Howard

I stand corrected on warranty and you make good points.

Merry christmas!