Where are all the Flat Glass Guys

Burns · August 18, 2014

Test film only to NFRC acceptance into database and you can then use Window to calculate performance on all types of glass also found in their database.

Is this a new feature in Optics5 i have not seen? i would love to be able to test just the film and apply to any glass i want. But NFRC requires you to test on specific glass thickness and vlt last time i checked but i could be wrong.

TomTint · August 18, 2014

Test film only to NFRC acceptance into database and you can then use Window to calculate performance on all types of glass also found in their database.
Is this a new feature in Optics5 i have not seen? i would love to be able to test just the film and apply to any glass i want. But NFRC requires you to test on specific glass thickness and vlt last time i checked but i could be wrong.

Well you could apply it to any glass and any thickness you want. And report the results that best suit your specific film. I. Fact 3M does that very well. However, the NFRC looks to measure performance data on a apples to apples basis. Measuring all film with the same protocol and under the same conditions. No "on angle" BS , or thicker glass data to mislead the consumer.

Burns · August 19, 2014

Test film only to NFRC acceptance into database and you can then use Window to calculate performance on all types of glass also found in their database.
Is this a new feature in Optics5 i have not seen? i would love to be able to test just the film and apply to any glass i want. But NFRC requires you to test on specific glass thickness and vlt last time i checked but i could be wrong.

Well you could apply it to any glass and any thickness you want. And report the results that best suit your specific film. I. Fact 3M does that very well. However, the NFRC looks to measure performance data on a apples to apples basis. Measuring all film with the same protocol and under the same conditions. No "on angle" BS , or thicker glass data to mislead the consumer.

There are ways to cheat on NFRC test as well. Off the top of my head NFRC allows glass sample substrates to range in VLT from 92% to 87% and i don't think they limit reflectivity of sample.These numbers could be wrong because i am going off memory but i know there is a substantial allowance.

If one had the money and were so inclined; they could test multiple samples and select the best sample with highest reflectivity and best vlt. there are all kinds of glass types like glass with high lead content i.e. crystal that have good properties for testing.

At the end of the day it really does not matter because the film you are buying is not off the same master roll they tested so specs could be way off. I have seen super hazy films with awesome TSER but i would never put them on a window but they would be great to test with.

Who knows but i do agree NFRC is the best practice we have.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Burns

Devil with bad attitude · August 19, 2014

In the end I think window film lacks credibility.

Interesting observation from one very learned in this industry.

devil

EWF · August 21, 2014

At the end of the day it really does not matter because the film you are buying is not off the same master roll they tested so specs could be way off.

Hi Burns,

This is true, but I believe that the NFRC does take this into account:

When you submit your film to the NFRC for inclusion in their database, you are agreeing to their terms and conditions. One such condition is that you will allow them future access to your facilities and to inspect/re-test the certified products coming off the line. How often these audits actually occur, I do not know. But it does raise the possibility that if you intentionally cheated on the initial submission, you could get caught. This of course would be highly embarrassing and detrimental to your credibility within the industry. To my way of thinking (and I am probably not alone) it is hardly worth the risk.

Industry professionals understand the concept of "normal manufacturing tolerances" and that there will be some (hopefully minor) variation in performance. I think that laypersons understand this concept as well: MPG ratings contain the caveat that "Your exact mileage may vary", but a Toyota Prius will likely get better fuel economy than a Hummer.

I also agree with your statement that while not perfect, NFRC ratings still represent the "best practice" we have in this industry. Following their guidelines will usually prevent customers from making gross errors in film selection.

Your well made points also raise another issue that I would like to take one step further. As we all accept that there may be some slight variations in published performance, it may make little sense to pay 200%-300% more for up front a film whose TSER is just a few percentage points higher than an alternative, reputable, well constructed product.

-Howard

Burns · August 21, 2014

At the end of the day it really does not matter because the film you are buying is not off the same master roll they tested so specs could be way off.

Hi Burns,

This is true, but I believe that the NFRC does take this into account:

When you submit your film to the NFRC for inclusion in their database, you are agreeing to their terms and conditions. One such condition is that you will allow them future access to your facilities and to inspect/re-test the certified products coming off the line. How often these audits actually occur, I do not know. But it does raise the possibility that if you intentionally cheated on the initial submission, you could get caught. This of course would be highly embarrassing and detrimental to your credibility within the industry. To my way of thinking (and I am probably not alone) it is hardly worth the risk.

Industry professionals understand the concept of "normal manufacturing tolerances" and that there will be some (hopefully minor) variation in performance. I think that laypersons understand this concept as well: MPG ratings contain the caveat that "Your exact mileage may vary", but a Toyota Prius will likely get better fuel economy than a Hummer.

I also agree with your statement that while not perfect, NFRC ratings still represent the "best practice" we have in this industry. Following their guidelines will usually prevent customers from making gross errors in film selection.

Your well made points also raise another issue that I would like to take one step further. As we all accept that there may be some slight variations in published performance, it may make little sense to pay 200%-300% more for up front a film whose TSER is just a few percentage points higher than an alternative, reputable, well constructed product.

-Howard

As always I agree with you Howard. I am sorry my post seems negative. This was not my intention. I love window film and believe it is an awesome product. I would love to be able to prove better to customers how great it is. This is why I am looking to better my auditing skills and see what best practices are being used in calculating ROI. Very often in bids i see a large variation in returns and i wonder how did they come up with that? I think the standards for film performance are in place but what about standards for energy audits?

vquestfilms.com · August 21, 2014

Burns,

The best way to check your BIM method is to have a project retro commissioned. Not easy, not cheap but it will show you whether your method is conservative or overestimated.

Burns · August 21, 2014

Burns,

The best way to check your BIM method is to have a project retro commissioned. Not easy, not cheap but it will show you whether your method is conservative or overestimated.

We have projects that i have reviewed to see reductions in energy cost but it is hard to determine because of outside variables beyond window film.

I was referring more to developing and using independent software like this which is standard in the solar industry. http://pvwatts.nrel.gov/

I have used efilm and and i dont think it is that great.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Burns

EWF · August 21, 2014

I love window film .

What about standards for energy audits?

Hi Burns,

I know you truly love window film. And might I add that you amongst the most talented and gifted marketers I have ever seen in this industry. What you have done is nothing short of magnificent. You simply cannot have created what you have without a deep passion. We all get frustrated at times. I go thru life wondering why there is not a piece of film on every square inch of sunlit glass. I believe that it often costs more not to have film on your windows.

Energy audits are computer modeling tools which are subject to a wide range of variables. They are useful in demonstrating the potential energy savings for project and helping to calculate ROI and payback time. But someone please correct me if I am wrong: They do not come with a guarantee. As with the MPG on the window sticker of a car - "your actual mileage may vary".

Not to keep repeating myself: Making a film vs. film decision based upon TSER alone will prevent the kind of gross selection errors that are all too common. Energy audits are useful when the question is posed: How much will it save and how long will it take to recover my investment?

-Howard

Burns · August 21, 2014

I love window film .

What about standards for energy audits?

Hi Burns,

I know you truly love window film. And might I add that you amongst the most talented and gifted marketers I have ever seen in this industry. What you have done is nothing short of magnificent. You simply cannot have created what you have without a deep passion. We all get frustrated at times. I go thru life wondering why there is not a piece of film on every square inch of sunlit glass. I believe that it often costs more not to have film on your windows.

Energy audits are computer modeling tools which are subject to a wide range of variables. They are useful in demonstrating the potential energy savings for project and helping to calculate ROI and payback time. But someone please correct me if I am wrong: They do not come with a guarantee. As with the MPG on the window sticker of a car - "your actual mileage may vary".

Not to keep repeating myself: Making a film vs. film decision based upon TSER alone will prevent the kind of gross selection errors that are all too common. Energy audits are useful when the question is posed: How much will it save and how long will it take to recover my investment?

-Howard

Thanks Howard. I really just want to get better at what i do. I really just wish more information on energy savings was readily available for dealers and consumers. Have you seen this:

http://www.iwfa.com/Portals/0/PDFDocs/IWFA%20Energy%20Study%20FINAL.pdf