FormulaOne or 3M?

Tintguy1980 · October 9, 2014

For the benefit of those who like to go beyond opinion, please provide the scientific data to substantiate the claim about IR not felt as heat (wavelengths used for remote control) and the data that backs the claim IR is felt as hottest because nerve endings respond more to the narrow nir band 900-1000nm. I find it difficult to understand that this narrow range does just that because it happens to be one of the regions with the least solar intensity.

There seems to be a great amount of IR before 1100 whereby most is far higher in intensity than 900-1000nm area seen as a serious peeks in the graph above. Other high intensity regions of the IR band can be found at 1050nm, 1350 nm, 1650nm (this one is as intense as 950 as seen by its peak equaling the lower point of the 950 dip).

It is the water in our body that absorbs the NIR quite well because water is an intense absorber of NIR. This absorption causes the water in our body to heat up then the nerve endings can register it as getting hot.

The only infrared that is known to be direct heat is far infrared.

Wavelengths related to the color red are found in the visible light portion of the spectrum.

TintJunkie · October 9, 2014

Oh dear... I tried so hard to leave this one alone.

THIS is why these threads are sooooo amusing. Even if it is low brow... So much dumbness in such a confined space. I guess it's time to ruffle some feathers.

"200 layers of something to make it more expensive? ".....

Well that dumbs down 3M's Multi-Optical Layering technology (which in itself holds dozens of individual manufacturing patents) to a single digit IQ level... Then you'll spin your usual trash about narrow IR band reporting. I could explain this for days but to keep it short; Not all IR is felt as heat. Not all heat comes from IR. There are wavelengths of IR between the colour red and the 900nm mark that cannot be felt as heat. These are the IR wavelengths commonly used in your tv remote control. You can't see them, you can't feel them. If you were designing a film with SPECTRALLY SELECTIVE capabilities, would you bother trying to block this portion of IR?... NO. Moving beyond the 1100nm range, the suns energy is this range depletes significantly as it moves even wider into the far infrared, and microwave regions.

Infrared absorption is different from visible and UV absorption: the first (IR) goes to vibrational energy in a material while the second and third go to electronic transitions. Our skin reflects a certain portion of light. That's why we can see each other. However it cannot reflect ALL visible light otherwise we'd all be pure white. The body defends itself by giving you a tan... But I digress...

In the simplest of terms, the band that Crystalline and Prestige performs best in, is no accident. It was engineered that way because those are the wavelengths of IR that the nerve endings in our skin respond to most. IE: What FEELS hottest.

"3M is a marketing company who sell 'sizzle'?...."

Please.... You gotta be kidding! I'm not sure about your experience MikeMN, but I've always found trying to get good marketing materials out of 3M to help promote their products is like pulling teeth! Marketing company my my a$$...

Some of you guys really need to do your own research and testing, instead of spewing the same garbage you've been fed by the wolves who want to keep their sheep in line. [emoji6]

All I can say, even though many of you don't want to hear it, is that the fact that you don't understand 3M's technologies properly, IS the reason you aren't using more of it. And if you deny that, then you probably lie about other stuff too.

Let the feathers fly!!

Hey TintJunkie, you feelin' schooled yet? [emoji106]

Well you are passionate about this. Have I been schooled?

Not quite.

I agree that red cannot be felt, as our body doesn't tell us what we are getting is bad. It still isn't good enough...to me. If red is somewhere in the range of roughly 650-750, and does/can do significant damage, and then add the 750-1400 range (which has the shortest wavelengths resulting in the highest energy), doesn't it make sense to test in that range? I don't tan, I burn, and it makes me feel hot afterwards, and at the time I am getting burned, my receptors don't warn me. So in my defense, going across the entire spectrum covers that 650-1400 range, where 3M is perfectly fine going only a range of 100-200nm. For the mannys that go across the entire spectrum, does that make them idiots for doing so? You just said it falls of significantly beyond 1100nm...but that doesn't mean it isn't valid to test.

Even still, everyone wants to say the playing field needs to be level. Im sure you agree, as do I. There are standard testing methods. All of the mannys have standard testing methods printed on a card, but some choose to add their own testing. Does this set that film/manny apart from the others...we could argue that. If someone truly wanted to level the field, IR and on angle would be left out...as it is not recognized.

MikeMN · October 10, 2014

Oh dear... I tried so hard to leave this one alone.

THIS is why these threads are sooooo amusing. Even if it is low brow... So much dumbness in such a confined space. I guess it's time to ruffle some feathers.

"200 layers of something to make it more expensive? ".....

Well that dumbs down 3M's Multi-Optical Layering technology (which in itself holds dozens of individual manufacturing patents) to a single digit IQ level... Then you'll spin your usual trash about narrow IR band reporting. I could explain this for days but to keep it short; Not all IR is felt as heat. Not all heat comes from IR. There are wavelengths of IR between the colour red and the 900nm mark that cannot be felt as heat. These are the IR wavelengths commonly used in your tv remote control. You can't see them, you can't feel them. If you were designing a film with SPECTRALLY SELECTIVE capabilities, would you bother trying to block this portion of IR?... NO. Moving beyond the 1100nm range, the suns energy is this range depletes significantly as it moves even wider into the far infrared, and microwave regions.

Infrared absorption is different from visible and UV absorption: the first (IR) goes to vibrational energy in a material while the second and third go to electronic transitions. Our skin reflects a certain portion of light. That's why we can see each other. However it cannot reflect ALL visible light otherwise we'd all be pure white. The body defends itself by giving you a tan... But I digress...

In the simplest of terms, the band that Crystalline and Prestige performs best in, is no accident. It was engineered that way because those are the wavelengths of IR that the nerve endings in our skin respond to most. IE: What FEELS hottest.

"3M is a marketing company who sell 'sizzle'?...."

Please.... You gotta be kidding! I'm not sure about your experience MikeMN, but I've always found trying to get good marketing materials out of 3M to help promote their products is like pulling teeth! Marketing company my my a$$...

Some of you guys really need to do your own research and testing, instead of spewing the same garbage you've been fed by the wolves who want to keep their sheep in line. [emoji6]

All I can say, even though many of you don't want to hear it, is that the fact that you don't understand 3M's technologies properly, IS the reason you aren't using more of it. And if you deny that, then you probably lie about other stuff too.

Let the feathers fly!!

Hey TintJunkie, you feelin' schooled yet? [emoji106]

Well you are passionate about this. Have I been schooled?

Not quite.

I agree that red cannot be felt, as our body doesn't tell us what we are getting is bad. It still isn't good enough...to me. If red is somewhere in the range of roughly 650-750, and does/can do significant damage, and then add the 750-1400 range (which has the shortest wavelengths resulting in the highest energy), doesn't it make sense to test in that range? I don't tan, I burn, and it makes me feel hot afterwards, and at the time I am getting burned, my receptors don't warn me. So in my defense, going across the entire spectrum covers that 650-1400 range, where 3M is perfectly fine going only a range of 100-200nm. For the mannys that go across the entire spectrum, does that make them idiots for doing so? You just said it falls of significantly beyond 1100nm...but that doesn't mean it isn't valid to test.

Even still, everyone wants to say the playing field needs to be level. Im sure you agree, as do I. There are standard testing methods. All of the mannys have standard testing methods printed on a card, but some choose to add their own testing. Does this set that film/manny apart from the others...we could argue that. If someone truly wanted to level the field, IR and on angle would be left out...as it is not recognized.

:hmmm ............... You may want to rethink that.

tintcracker · October 10, 2014

It should just be like the paper towel commercials.

MikeMN · October 10, 2014

It should just be like the paper towel commercials.

If you can Not run with the Big dogs, perhaps you should stay on the porch.

Just saying.

TintDude · October 10, 2014

3M thread always bring out the worst in people. :twocents

TintJunkie · October 10, 2014

Oh dear... I tried so hard to leave this one alone.

THIS is why these threads are sooooo amusing. Even if it is low brow... So much dumbness in such a confined space. I guess it's time to ruffle some feathers.

"200 layers of something to make it more expensive? ".....

Well that dumbs down 3M's Multi-Optical Layering technology (which in itself holds dozens of individual manufacturing patents) to a single digit IQ level... Then you'll spin your usual trash about narrow IR band reporting. I could explain this for days but to keep it short; Not all IR is felt as heat. Not all heat comes from IR. There are wavelengths of IR between the colour red and the 900nm mark that cannot be felt as heat. These are the IR wavelengths commonly used in your tv remote control. You can't see them, you can't feel them. If you were designing a film with SPECTRALLY SELECTIVE capabilities, would you bother trying to block this portion of IR?... NO. Moving beyond the 1100nm range, the suns energy is this range depletes significantly as it moves even wider into the far infrared, and microwave regions.

Infrared absorption is different from visible and UV absorption: the first (IR) goes to vibrational energy in a material while the second and third go to electronic transitions. Our skin reflects a certain portion of light. That's why we can see each other. However it cannot reflect ALL visible light otherwise we'd all be pure white. The body defends itself by giving you a tan... But I digress...

In the simplest of terms, the band that Crystalline and Prestige performs best in, is no accident. It was engineered that way because those are the wavelengths of IR that the nerve endings in our skin respond to most. IE: What FEELS hottest.

"3M is a marketing company who sell 'sizzle'?...."

Please.... You gotta be kidding! I'm not sure about your experience MikeMN, but I've always found trying to get good marketing materials out of 3M to help promote their products is like pulling teeth! Marketing company my my a$$...

Some of you guys really need to do your own research and testing, instead of spewing the same garbage you've been fed by the wolves who want to keep their sheep in line. [emoji6]

All I can say, even though many of you don't want to hear it, is that the fact that you don't understand 3M's technologies properly, IS the reason you aren't using more of it. And if you deny that, then you probably lie about other stuff too.

Let the feathers fly!!

Hey TintJunkie, you feelin' schooled yet? [emoji106]

Well you are passionate about this. Have I been schooled?

Not quite.

I agree that red cannot be felt, as our body doesn't tell us what we are getting is bad. It still isn't good enough...to me. If red is somewhere in the range of roughly 650-750, and does/can do significant damage, and then add the 750-1400 range (which has the shortest wavelengths resulting in the highest energy), doesn't it make sense to test in that range? I don't tan, I burn, and it makes me feel hot afterwards, and at the time I am getting burned, my receptors don't warn me. So in my defense, going across the entire spectrum covers that 650-1400 range, where 3M is perfectly fine going only a range of 100-200nm. For the mannys that go across the entire spectrum, does that make them idiots for doing so? You just said it falls of significantly beyond 1100nm...but that doesn't mean it isn't valid to test.

Even still, everyone wants to say the playing field needs to be level. Im sure you agree, as do I. There are standard testing methods. All of the mannys have standard testing methods printed on a card, but some choose to add their own testing. Does this set that film/manny apart from the others...we could argue that. If someone truly wanted to level the field, IR and on angle would be left out...as it is not recognized.

............... You may want to rethink that.

What I meant by that is they take a sample between 900-1000, or 900-1100.

Come on Mike, you know what I meant.

TD, I think Im being very courteous. Im sure you have seen my posts in ISIS in Aussie.

To date, no 3M guy has brought an argument that doesn't have a valid rebuttal.

MikeMN · October 10, 2014

3M thread always bring out the worst in people.

Not as bad as a few years ago .................. :twocents ................. :spit

FBO · October 10, 2014

It should just be like the paper towel commercials.

If you can Not run with the Big dogs, perhaps you should stay on the porch.

Just saying.

lol

TintDude · October 10, 2014

TD, I think Im being very courteous. Im sure you have seen my posts in ISIS in Aussie.
To date, no 3M guy has brought an argument that doesn't have a valid rebuttal.

I didn't mean you.

I should have said in the 15 years I've been doing this, without fail, the 3M threads go south and a bunch of people get upset.

I should have known better to post in any 3M thread whatsoever. :lol