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What is the REAL reason Dual Pane breaks under a lot of heat

Matthew1990
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Matthew1990

Matthew1990

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Hello guys first post but long term observer of this group! The information here is still far better than any Facebook group so thought I would add this question here as well! 

My question is for you Flat Glass Pros! What is the real reason that Dual Pane glass breaks more than when the glass is single standing? everywhere I read It is different.. 


- Some say its the two panes moving different to each other?

- Others say its the fact the gas in the middle ads to the overall heat build up thus causing the tinted window to be absorbing too much heat and crack?

Really curious as to why it breaks! And I may as well slide another question in while I'm here! Why don't they make ceramic in the darker shades in flatglass? or why don't they make it in the silver ranges of window film to make a silver ceramic window film?

 

Thanks guys!

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Roach

Roach

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18 minutes ago, Matthew1990 said:

Why don't they make ceramic in the darker shades in flatglass?

 

I'll refrain from adding my :twocents to the brakeage question... mostly due to not coming across it much at all. 

 

As for a dark ceramic. My hypothesis is... generally speaking, ceramic films are not as reflective as normal duel-reflective films. That being the case, the darker you go, the more heat is going to be absorbed rather then reflected. Which at that point, you enter the range where it breaks.  Not sure if gas in the middle comes in to play with that... but I think it's more the glass being heated. 

 

A silver film is opposite of what the ceramic films are meant to do. Do the job of window film w/o being shiny. So there would be no such thing as a 'silver ceramic' film. Total opposites. 

 

 

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Matthew1990

Matthew1990

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From what I've researched the window film deals with the Reflectance , Absorbance, Transmittance  of the suns energy (UV Rays, Visible Light, Infared heat) 

So it has to deal with 100% of the energy that passes through it whether its reflected , absorbed or let through, so surely silver, which is a very reflective tint... Will REFLECT the IR rays instead of absorbing it.. The same way it reflects the UV rays and visible light instead of absorbing, how can it all of a sudden be an absorbing window film for just IR? When its properties are reflective and it deals with the other parts of the R.A.T the same? And if it can not have control over the absorption of this. Even if it could not control this. Then why wouldn't they just create the film anyway for single pane glass ?

 

Sorry if these confuses you, thought it might be quite interesting to answer this considering after 10 years its not been answered :)

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Tintguy1980

Tintguy1980

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On 6/26/2021 at 9:44 PM, Matthew1990 said:

- Some say its the two panes moving different to each other?

- Others say its the fact the gas in the middle ads to the overall heat build up thus causing the tinted window to be absorbing too much heat and crack?

Really curious as to why it breaks! And I may as well slide another question in while I'm here! Why don't they make ceramic in the darker shades in flatglass? or why don't they make it in the silver ranges of window film to make a silver ceramic window film?

 

Thanks guys!

The underlined is misinformation.

 

I posted in another discussion temperature differences between center pane and pane edge; that is one reason glass breaks. Glass center and glass edge heating up at different rates puts molecular stress on the glass or thermal stress as it's better known as. Other reasons include a minor crack or clam-shell chip at glass edge not visible because of frame. These two anomalies will crack quicker when the pane heats up from sun exposure than a pane with pristine edges. Adding tint to the equation you get ever more rapid glass failure.

 

Temperature difference can be witnessed during winter by simply pouring warm or hot water on a windshield to melt the frost or, vise versa. I had snow atop my Jeep a couple winters back. The sun had warmed up the windshield and as I approached a red light, braking, the snow slid off the roof onto the warm windshield. With a low 'pahting' sound, I witnessed a crack form from one side edge.

 

LowE in dual pane glass has become more prevalent in architecture, and with that, the need to be eyeing film reflection and absorption rates carefully. This is because the lowE coating is almost always on surface 2 (the inside surface of the outer pane). Placing a high reflection (or in some cases seriously high absorptive film) on surface 4 (the inside surface of the inner pane) causes that pane to heat up and though you might have air movement from the outside air, the lowE coating is trapping heat from escaping the outer pane. Heat always seeks cold (that's physics). The trapped heat will absorb into the tinted pane seeking transfer through to the cooler air on the room side, causing the inner pane to heat up beyond the limit; 50 F difference between center pane and pane edge for annealed glass. It is the uneven expansion rates between center and edge, again, puts undo stress on the glass to the point of failure. If tempered glass is involved in a dual pane setting with lowE coatings, the glass cannot fail due to heat stress, however. the seal that creates the dual pane can and will fail prematurely. Tempered glass fails at 200 F difference between center pane and glass edge.

 

High performance lowE is a different animal whereby most tints can be applied without breakage issues because that type glazing system rejects much of the solar energy before reaching the inner pane.

 

Another physics; the sun's electromagnetic radiation (visible, UV, and NIR) pass through glass, entering the room and heats up the air etc by absorption.

 

May I suggest you contact the IWFA (International Window Film Association) and request a copy of their Architectural Film Installation Guide (it'll cost you some digits but, well worth it as resource). Also, get your hands on a film-to-glass chart from any major film manufacturer and use it to determine what film is best for what glazing system. If your current supplier does not have one, get it from one that does and you can still use it if you closely compare film performance values from your supplier to that which is listed on a film to glass chart.

 

 

Edited by Tintguy1980
memory slips
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Matthew1990

Matthew1990

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Wow! What an amazing response. We have the books as well but thanks so much for the response!

 

I may as well try and get the answer to another question while you seem to be a wiz! 

 

The dual reflective being "dual pane safe" when this film gets darker it looks more silver on one side with the express window films ranges.

 

I would presume it's to reject more heat away so they balance the absorption so it's safe. But when I look at pictures of JWF night scape 05 it's black both sides?  But does have more absorption.

 

I spoke to express window films and they claim there isn't even a silver. It's a reflective black? (Picture added) < one is their silver 15 and one is their dr 05.. clearly is silver to me? We installed their dr25 and it looked silverish as well

 

Screenshot_20210714-065100_Messenger.jpg

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Tintguy1980

Tintguy1980

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1 hour ago, Matthew1990 said:

Wow! What an amazing response. We have the books as well but thanks so much for the response!

 

 

 

I spoke to express window films and they claim there isn't even a silver. It's a reflective black? (Picture added) < one is their silver 15 and one is their dr 05.. clearly is silver to me? We installed their dr25 and it looked silverish as well

 

 

Thanks ... I am but an 8th grader compared to the colleagues I once worked with (and, no, don't ask ... as I am bound by NDA not to disclose where I worked or with whom).

 

I am going to presume one of the samples you show is silver reflective on both sides and the other is silver reflective on one side and the opposing side is black (much like a real glass mirror)? Either way, I personally, would not put those films on standard lowE or lowE dual pane and they both would be overkill on lowE2, lowE3 and lowE4 (the three latter being high performance lowE). Standard clear dual pane glazing would handle the two choices presented.

 

Maybe the person you spoke with was thinking in terms of silver as in the metal (Ag) rather than silver in appearance. These samples are an aluminum vapor coating deposited to the polyester surface. Films are made with either and can almost look alike. One is just more pricey.

 

Edit:

I'm vaguely familiar with JWF products but I am going to go out on a limb and say Nightscape 05 is either a make up of two ply with each ply being coated with metal oxide to not have a shiny 'silver' appearance or it could be a three ply with two layers of dyed polyester with an aluminum coated ply sandwiched between each dye layer. Sorry, really don't know this product and am only comparing it to other known 'similar' constructions under other names.

Edited by Tintguy1980
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Matthew1990

Matthew1990

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ahh! No he definitely said it is a black reflective window film! So my thoughts were correct? Some people just choose to use less silver "aluminum" to make the film look less mirrored but also while trying to balance out the absorbance and reflectance to make it as safe as possible??

What you are implying with the 3 layers sounds cool! Almost like a triple reflective window film! Your might be onto something there haha!
 

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Tintguy1980

Tintguy1980

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2 hours ago, Matthew1990 said:

ahh! No he definitely said it is a black reflective window film! So my thoughts were correct? Some people just choose to use less silver "aluminum" to make the film look less mirrored but also while trying to balance out the absorbance and reflectance to make it as safe as possible??


 

Well, I certainly didn't live up to the 'wiz' label in respect to 'black reflective' other than the fact that in a DR 05 film construction one side has a reflective silver appearance and the other side is black. So, is it being touted as Black Reflective for marketing purposes, even though it's exterior appearance is silver reflective?

 

Is the 15 sample DR as well?

 

Dual reflective denotes unequal visible reflective values; one side compared to the opposing side ... so a DR 05 might have a reflective value above 35 facing to the exterior and the interior having a visible reflective value of, say, 13.

 

If both sides are equally silver in appearance they will have close reflective values.

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