Nezil

On 4/22/2018 at 8:53 PM, no ma'am said:

I can't tell you how much bigger to cut your pattern on a pilot until Tuesday when I have to work on one.

How did the Pilot installation go? Any thoughts on the front doors with the slightly shifting glass?

And so having now gone through ~35' of film learning to tint, I have some questions that I hope some of you will be able to help me with...

• Is the Express Classic Charcoal 1.5 likely to cause a problem with the comfort entry on my BMW M2 or my wife's 2016 Honda Pilot?
• Is the Express Classic Charcoal going to match the factory rear tint on my wife's 2016 Honda Pilot better than Classic Black?
• Any tips for the front doors of the 2016 Honda Pilot, given the amount they shift in the seals, with respect to visible edges during rolling up?
• Do the other ceramic films on the market (QDP / Express, Llumar CTX, FormulaOne Pinnacle & Stratos, Huper Optik etc.) also all suffer from the Low Angle Haze problem? Is that just a ceramic tint 'thing' that some consider worth it because of the IR blocking benefits?
• I'm finding the Express Classic Black film quite 'grabby', in that it doesn't slide around on the glass much at all. I probably get about 5 seconds to move the film around when I first put it on the glass, and if I'm not in the correct position by then, it's tough to get it to move. Occasionally I've had to go so far as to peel back the film and apply more slip to get it to move,  and this is even before the first light squeegee pass; the adhesive seems quite aggressive at times. If I increase the amount of baby shampoo in my slip solution, will this help at all?

Thanks in advance to anyone who's able to offer advise. It's been a fun, though honestly pretty challenging (respect to all of you pros; really) learning experience so far. I didn't expect this, but I've found tinting to be more challenging than PPF installation so far...

OK, so as promised, I'm writing again to report on my work with the Express Classic Black 35%...

I bought 30" x 25' because I knew I was going to be doing the back window of my car, and the front door windows of my wife's 2016 Honda Pilot, both of which are greater than 20" so I stepped up a size.

My initial thoughts, and take this with a huge grain of salt, since I'm a beginner!, are that it's slightly easier to crease during shrinking than the eBay ceramic, but not significantly so. It's actually slightly brown in shade rather than blue, which doesn't really match the factory tint on my wife's Pilot.

The eBay ceramic tint, I'm pretty sure really is ceramic, because it noticeably blocked a lot of IR from the sun; far more so than the Express Classic Black. Having said that, it also suffered really badly from what I've read is called 'Low Angle Haze', though I'd be more included to call it 'Any Angle Haze', because any time sunlight hit the window directly, at any angle, it just turned milky. This lead to it also looking like a lighter shade of tint, because the haze itself is visible light. My wife loved the heat rejection, but said there was no way she could live with the haziness, so I steamed it off her car and started replacing it with the Classic Black 35%.

Thanks the to the tips from @no ma'am, I was able to successfully tint the doors, rear sides and back window of my M2, and I'm pretty happy with the results. The defroster lines are slightly raised, which causes an annoying affect in the rear view mirror at night, but I'm told this is somewhat normal. I don't have any 'peanut' bubbles or anything horrendous like that. In fact I'm pretty happy overall with the M2, particularly now that it's been a day since I did it, and the film has started to dry out, it looks really very good.

My wife's Pilot on the other hand, has been pretty annoying. I got the driver's side done today, including the small piece just behind the door mirror that doesn't roll down, which, believe it or not, has been way easier to do than the roll down window! I took two attempts to do the driver's door yesterday, and I burned through two more 3' lengths just now trying to do the passenger door... and now I've run out of film... At least it was cheap... Thanks again to @no ma'am for suggesting that I buy a short roll of Classic Black to practice with!

The issue I'm finding is that the Pilot front door windows are obviously big, and though they don't change angle by design as they roll down, they're pretty loose in the seals, so there is quite a bit of movement side to side as they go up and down. Typically they shift toward the rear of the car as they are rolled down, and to toward the front of the car as they're rolled up. On the driver's side, although it installed well, you can see a small gap if you look for it as the window is rolled up, because of how it shifts forward. This annoyed me, so on the passenger side, I deliberately cut the film wider to try and hide the edge, and though it fitted pretty well at the top, this made it really difficult to tuck into the seals at the bottom. On my last attempt, I ended up with a couple of fingers because I couldn't push this wider film into the seals enough at the bottom.

Oh, and I should have said this before, but I've been doing filled edges on all of the door glass, and it's held up well so far, so I'm happy with that!

That's my report on what I've done so far... I'll make another post with some questions.

1 minute ago, no ma'am said:

  never guess what I tinted today and with what film  this guys good luck  

What film did you use?

By the time I've posted my car to this thread, we'll only need a Black Sapphire Metallic M2 photo to complete the set of all M2 colours! Mine's Long Beach Blue by the way...

OK, so based on the recommendations of many people on this forum (thanks), I've ordered a short roll of Classic Black 35% from Express (30" x 25'). I'm going to use this to practice with, and may simply stop at that point, because I'm unable to source any decent Ceramic tint film in quantities less than a full 100' roll, and I simply don't need that much.

I was hoping to do the front windshields of both of my cars, and would use a 70% ceramic for that. Express does sell 70% in 50' lengths, so I might consider that down the road.

Thanks to everyone who gave advise about remove, and particularly to @no ma'am, for advise on M2 front doors!

I'll post some pictures of my M2 after the film arrives and I've had a chance to do the install.

Thanks again.

On 4/14/2018 at 10:32 AM, no ma'am said:

Cut back edge first... slide forward.... if not shaving/filing. Tuck seals and shrink pattern... use a shank or similar tool to pull seal back up after install and heat down. I use a minimal amount of water in my installs and am quick to clean up and or cover electronics. Also round the shit out of bottom front corner of pattern before install.

This is really helpful @no ma'am, thanks!

In all of the research I'd done, I'd not heard of 'tucking seals' before. Simply sliding under was always suggested. Sliding under worked for my wife's car, but the seals on the M2 are tight, and the film kept grabbing, especially at the front corner. I'll give this a go next try. 

Ironic that you actually did install Stratos on that M2... The very film I wanted to install, but can't get!

43 minutes ago, no ma'am said:

I'm supposed to do one today  doors are really tight in front corners. 

Oh, and word of warning... In the trunk there is electronics in the cavities behind the wheel arch on both sides. The audio amplifier is on the driver's side, and has holes on the top of the case. 

Roughly 50% of bimmerpost form members that got tints installed had the amplifier fail due to water damage. Any water at all from the rear deck drops right onto and into that amplifier!

It's pretty easy to remove (one 10mm nut), or you could put a bag over the top of it probably. 

29 minutes ago, no ma'am said:

I'm supposed to do one today  doors are really tight in front corners. 

Yes, if you check my first post, I mentioned that I messed up on the doors twice, and though I didn't say why, this was the reason...

Please let me know if you have any tips for that. I was planning to remove the tweeter unit and door card to see if it would reduce tension on the seal in the corner. 

The other thing I noticed is that the rear end of the seal is lower than the rest of it, so if you trim your bottom edge to have a ~1/8" down inside the seal, the back edge will have a small section of glass exposed. It wouldn't be visible because it would be inside the door shut, but it might catch when the window drops for the door to open because it won't be under the seal the whole time, and as you said, the seal is tight at each end. 

2 hours ago, no ma'am said:

Hp may interfere with comfort access, what Bmw? Please don't give me e or f codes .... year make and model.... I've probably done more beemers single handed than most of the vets on here. Also you can get a 60x50 ft roll cut 40/20. (Ceramic) that's how I roll. 

It's a 2018 BMW M2. 

And so an update...

Thanks to the suggestions of @no ma'am, I picked up a Wagner Power Steamer on the way home from work, and got to work on the windows that I'd tinted with the eBay possibly, probably fake Stratos film. To cut a long story short, it came off really well, leaving absolutely no glue behind on the front door and rear windows. The back window where I'd attempted to remove it previously left a tiny bit of glue in the section I'd scraped last night, and a little in the corner where I started the peeling, but no-where else. Windex and #000 wire wool made really short work of the glue clean up, but I'll go over the whole window again like that before my next install attempt just to make sure.

What was very interesting is the way the film came off... I had thought previously that I'd removed the hard coat and left behind a tinted glue, but this clearly wasn't the case, because when I started on the back window, there ended up being two layers that effectively de-laminated. One was a clear, pretty thick, with a hard coat, and the other was the layer that contained the tint, but it wasn't the glue, because it came off as a whole piece more or less, and in some places, as I said, left some glue behind.

The eBay seller didn't exactly say that what he'd sold me wasn't Stratos film, his exact words were that if I'd claimed to have compared it to Stratos and found it to be different, he'd have accepted that, even though the IR rejection of the film he sold was 90%, the same as Stratos.

What we do now know however, is that it is at least a 2 ply film, and if you include the glue layers, it's effectively 5 layer - base glue, tint (claimed to be ceramic), mid layer glue, clear protection, hard coat. Does anyone want to have a look at some of the left over pieces I have and try to guess what it is? I'd be happy to USPS a small piece; I'm really interested now what this film is, and thought some of you might be as well.

OK, so I gave Express a call, as suggested, and they were very helpful. It seems that the summary of their current Premium offering is as follows, ordered in increasing TSER performance:

• NR Classic 1.0 Charcoal - Single ply dyed film (slightly harder to work with, but also slightly cheaper)
• NR Classic 1.2 Charcoal - Two ply dyed film
• NR Classic Black - Two ply dyed film in shades to match Suntek Carbon (available in a wider range of roll lengths, and different VLTs from Classic Charcoal 1.2; identical construction)
• HP Classic 1.5 Charcoal - Hybrid Two ply dyed / metalised film
• HP Classic All Metal - Full metalised film
• CR Classic Ceramic - Ceramic film

Ceramic, as expected, is quite a bit more expensive than dyed film, and though available to anyone, only comes in 100' rolls, which makes sense if you're buying as a professional. Classic [1.0, 1.2 & 1.5] Charcoal is available in 40" x 10' sample rolls in some shades, and the prices are good, but it is only some shades.

As suggested by @no ma'am, Classic Black in 40" x 25' might be the best choice for me to practice with. By all accounts it appears to be a well regarded film, and available in a size that would allow me to do my wife's car and mine, with a little to spare (she only needs front door windows), and will likely be a fairly close match to the factory SUV tint in the back windows.

I was considering a sample roll of Classic 1.5 Charcoal, but the metal layer concerns me if it would block RF because I make a lot of calls from the car, and my car is a BMW with comfort access - is this a legitimate concern with Classic 1.5 Charcoal?

4 minutes ago, Stewy said:

Classic black is in buytint.com. this forumn is full of people that are direct with their answers we do not sugar coat things because it is easier that way. Thats what makes this place awesome. We are informing you, it might be sarcastic but we are still helping you.

Yep, I found that. What's the difference between Classic Black and Classic Charcoal and the various versions of it though?

4 minutes ago, Nezil said:

An update... I got a full refund from the eBay seller, so I may have lost some time, but I've not lost any money...

Oh and the seller didn't deny that it wasn't Stratos. He did say that it was ceramic, and I don't actually doubt that, because it does reject a lot of IR based on heat lamp back of hand testing. It might not be a bad film, but it's not Stratos, and since the seller won't say what it is, we have no way to know, at least by reputation.

An update... I got a full refund from the eBay seller, so I may have lost some time, but I've not lost any money...

2 hours ago, no ma'am said:

Dodge flexfilm and suntek, get some film from express. Classic series black or charcoal or hp. Probably best to order some short rolls of classic black if you're gonna teach yourself.

Thanks very very much, this is very helpful, and I really appreciate someone giving advise as opposed to just pointing me to a professional. Express does indeed have a big selection, but the data is scarce. If I am looking for ~35% VLT, then it looks like I have the following choices from their Premium Line:

• NR (Non-reflective) Classic 1.0 Charcoal 40% - 35% TSE Rejection *
• NR (Non-reflective) Classic 1.2 Charcoal 40% - 35% TSE Rejection *
• NR (Non-reflective) Classic Black 35% - 38% TSE Rejection
• HP (High Performance) Classic All Metal 40% - 49% TSE Rejection
• HP (High Performance) Classic 1.5 Charcoal 40% - 42% TSE Rejection *
• CR Ceramic 38% - 44% TSE Rejection

As you said, they offer short rolls of some of these films (those starred above), which is nice, and as you said, helpful for practice. I obviously know the difference between dyed, metalised and ceramic, and the TSE Rejection numbers reflect that (pardon the pun), but what is the difference between Classic 1.0, 1.2, and (HP) 1.5 Charcoal, and what is the difference between Classic Charcoal and Classic Black?

Any tips for removing what I've got on there?

Yes, this is disappointing... Both the fact that the film I got was wrong, and the response from @jh812.

At no point did I say that I was trying to save money by doing this install myself, I said I was trying to learn a new skill. I already spent the same amount of money on tools and film that I would have spent getting it installed professionally, so it's not about the money in any way.

The other reason I wanted to do the install myself, is that the car I have also has an issue where literally 50% of owners that got tints professionally had electronics water damaged because the way water runs from the back deck down goes straight into a cavity in the rear wheel well with electronics in it. I was able to take the time to remove all of the trim and electronics before I started to make sure that I avoided that problem, which many of the professional installers wouldn't have felt was needed.

I found a similar experience when I wanted to learn PPF installation, that about 50% of 'professionals' didn't want to sell me film, and didn't want to give advise, as though there was some secret society that I had to be a member of before secrets would be shared. Fortunately, the other 50% gave advise, along with warnings about loosing the valuable warranty if I did it myself, and that I wouldn't save any money etc.

Surely the difference between a professional, and anyone else, besides that they do their work for money, is that they have greater experience. I work in the video industry, and I see the lines blurring between professional (i.e. Hollywood) and consumer (i.e. YouTube) blurring every day. Equipment is getting better, and there is greater access to knowledge and support than there ever has been.

I had hoped that the TintDude community would be happy to help out, rather than just laugh at my misfortune. Hopefully the next responses will be more supportive.

I've already contacted PayPal and will get a refund for the counterfeit film that I bought. I am not desperate to use Stratos, it was just the best that I saw listed, so maybe I'll order from Flexfilm since they will at least sell to me. It's frustrating that I've not found anywhere that I can buy film from that isn't a) counterfeit (eBay), or b) a single supplier with a small selection (Flexfilm). Finding PPF was not this difficult, and I had a choice of XPEL or Suntek.

I enjoying learning new things, and after being pretty successful at PPF on my car (I've successfully done full hood, full front fenders, rocker panels, extended section in front of the rear wheels and small section behind rear wheels on the bumper), I decided to give tinting a try.

I watched various videos online about the process, and then ordered up 40" x 10' of Llumar FormulaOne Stratos... At least I think that's what I got. I don't have a lot of experience, so I can't say for sure if it was a good film or not, but I can say that it wasn't too difficult to work with, and I got the rear side windows (I have a two door car) done quite easily. The rear window was a bit more challenging, and though I got it shrunk correctly first time, I did introduce a few creases in the process, and therefore planned to re-do it. I also messed up the frameless doors a couple of times, and then ran out of film, so I'm waiting for some more to arrive before continuing.

While I wait for the new film to arrive, I decided to leave the film I'd installed in place to see how it cured over time, in case I needed to pay attention to any additional things the next install attempt. I was particularly interested in what happened with the dot matrix, and defroster lines, but I also notice quite a bit of haziness to the film, and wanted to see if that would fade over the few days since install.

Looking at some videos on YouTube about removing film, I got a bit concerned about how difficult it would be on the rear window, and decided to remove it tonight before it set too much.... but it looks like I'm already too late!

I picked at the edge until a plastic layer peeled up, but this layer is almost 100% transparent (I used 35% tint BTW), and what's left on the glass is very slightly tacky, and contains almost all of the tinted aspect of the film. If I were to peel off all of this transparent layer, which I guess is the hard coat, then the remaining tint is pretty uniform, shiny and smooth, but it is slightly tacky and would be impossible to clean. It's got to come off, but I can't work out how!

I tried Alcohol on a blue shop towel, and that didn't do anything. Stepping it up a bit, I tried Electrical Contact Cleaner, which is a lighter alcohol solvent cleaner, and that also did nothing. A razor blade works, but this tacky material is not loose and sticky like I've seen in videos, so I'd almost be scraping it off rather than wiping it; it's very dry. I'm really worried about the defroster if I have to scrape off the whole window, and I'm also worried about scratching the glass if I have to use a sharp blade like a carbon steel one because it's so tough.

This all leads me to wonder if the film is indeed Stratos as I was told it was... It does seem to block heat pretty well, and the colour is clearly very neutral and not blue / purple in any way. When heating, it shrunk pretty easily, without bunching up or forming tight fingers etc, and I didn't get any bubbles in any of the windows I did, including the back window. With the exception of the creases, installation was a breeze!

I'm happy to post pictures if that helps at all... Please help; I've got to get this off the back window, and I've stopped removing the clear plastic (about 75% of the window is as installed) in the hope that there might be a better way to remove it.