vquestfilms.com

 
 
ASWF has the best performing IR film on the market and its the best priced as well.  Do some research and educate yourself on their new IR films.

Using the building windows would not work for us since the building overhangs the windows which virtually allows no direct sun to hit them.  The glass has a medium shaded brown color to them which would throw everything off.  The other issue with that in general is if the glass on the building is a higher performing glass...that would also not allow for a real world experience either.  In that case it wouldn't be any better at being accurate than a heat lamp.  Our Llumar display (what we primarily use) has a halogen bulb in it.  The 3M display does not, but we will swap out one day when we think about it...it is just a pain to do since several things have to be removed to remove it.  I think there is no accurate way all shops can display a real world experience daily.  IMO the heat lamp is the best tool we have as long as it is being sold as correctly and honestly as possible.

The problem is the demo needs to be simple and practical.  Taking a slide outside with film samples to demonstrate true sun conditions is neither.  The sun is not always available when you need to do a demo...our last appointment of our day is after it is getting dark at this time of year.  Winter time will be a complete bust not to mention you requiring the customer to be outside on extremely hot or cold days depending on the time of the year and location.  Then just the amount of time this will take per customer...imagine a shop that has 4-5 installers pumping vehicles out.  IMO the heat lamp is the best option that is simple and practical.  We do not use it as, "this is how it will be in your car", but just displaying the performance power of each film.  With that being said, I 100% agree that can be misleading if sold improperly and does not demonstrate real life results.  [mention=32461]vquestfilms.com[/mention]  Do you know of a shop that can do outside heat rejection demonstrations for a customer on a daily basis?  If so, please link the shop and/or photos that we can see how it is possible.

Granted, a quick way to bounce between different Films types to feel energy filtering differences has its place but my point is to be as accurate as possible and don’t deceive a consumer whether it be knowingly or unknowingly. We’re professionals, right?

At the very least, do as Smartie suggested and use a halogen bulb. Reducing the representation of the incoming Solar spectral energy to less than half by using IR bulbs totally stacks the deck and using an IR bulb with an IR absorbing Film and measuring the comparative difference between with a btu meter is taking misrepresentation of film performance to a whole new level.

Now that you know, it’s time to go to the hardware store.

I strongly disagree with the lightbulb demo... An IR Heat lamp emits roughly 94% of its energy as IR. As most already know, the IR spectrum makes up less than half of the total solar spectrum energy. So to simulate IR only and use that to determine Film choice is very misleading. Take a 70% vlt IR Film for instance. It will not feel the same in the vehicle as it does under the IR lamp. It is a simple fact.

Approach it like a business person... Measure the job and calculate (Cost of materials + cost of labor) * (growth margin percentage) = bid price 

Assuming you want to grow your business and do more large projects? 

For a vehicle? It is much more complex equation than simply calculating the percentage of increase in TSER of one film over the next. Technically speaking, the most effective way for a consumer to determine the real world difference between two film’s TSER’s is for you the Dealer to ditch the infrared heat lamp demo and simulate real sunlight conditions. Place decent sized samples on single pane clear glass exposed to the sun and. “feel the difference” with your face and hands. No meters, no misleading French fry bulbs... just plain old real sunlight conditions.  

 
How funny! Yes, they are one of the installers I'm talking with, among the others that you also recommended. Good to know that C30 is an option if I want to go that route.
 
Yeah confirming with my HOA on specific rules, the rules can be tricky. These windows face the back so think it should be less of an issue.
 
For DR, would F28 work to give decent daytime privacy while not being too dark? That might be a happy compromise. Also thinking about Slate 30. 
 
Thanks!

On 11/4/2017 at 2:46 AM, PenguinTint said:

Thanks everyone for their reply!

 

We had our final consultation which was a HO dealer which showed us Ceramic, Drei, and Fusion.

 

I do agree that overall comparing with all the other film samples we have HO has some really nice optics. At first I thought my wife (boss) wanted clear view and visibility as the top priority thus was focusing on ceramic and spectral select but after she saw the Fusion, she likes the idea of privacy and now wants me to look at DR films (argh!!!).

 

Drei is an option but it's really expensive, C40 is already a premium and Drei on top of that just pushes it way out of budget. If I had an ocean view or canyon hills view maybe but this is just looking out in a backyard garden plus my wife/boss is now changing her mind where she wants more privacy (pulling my hair out at this point and might just get some roller shades).

 

The other snag I ran into is that we can't go down to C30 as we're double-pane low-e glass. This was the only rep that inspected our glass etching, looked up the compatibility guide and said for ceramic we can only go to C40. So was super impress with that as no other installer mentioned this or checked. I had another installer that said C30 would be fine. I pointed out the guide I found online and they said they talked to their rep (who said no problem) and would get it in writing, but never heard back from them -- shrug.

 

So the rep showed us the Fusion 10 which is also a nice film (plus cheaper to boot), my concern is that it's too dark and from reading other threads it seems better suited for businesses. I see for residential more people recommending 20 or 30 instead. I guess I can do the "sunglasses" test but will need to get more samples, my installers are going get super annoyed with me :).

 

So now I shifted to focusing on these three DR films now:

- HO Fusion 10/20/30

- Panorama Slate 10/20/30

- Vista Ultima V14, Celeste V18, Luminance V28

 

So my questions are:

1) For privacy (outside looking in) what min level of ext. reflectance should I aim for? 30%+, 35%+, 40%+? I imagine that the exterior reflectance becomes a bigger factor where I actually need a high enough ext. reflectance so people can't see in and I have privacy. Is there any rule of thumb for what to look for? I have a sample of DRDS-35 which has a ext reflectance of 18% on the spec sheet which I tested and does not provide enough daytime privacy my wife/boss wants. I have a Fusion 10 sample which boosts an ext reflectance of 51% which does provides lots of privacy but pretty mirror like from the outside. What's the happy ground? 

2) I live within a HOA community so is there an ext. reflectance to keep below to stay below HOA complaints? Again this is more real-world experience. I read my CC&R but didn't see anything specific so reached out to our HOA rep for exact clarification. I do know my neighbors have done medium level tints w/o issue. 

2) What VLT is most commonly recommended for residential daytime privacy? I understand this is highly subjective and likely a need some mocks and samples to really tell. But wondering if there's a rule of thumb. 

4) Among those brands any comments? I understand that HO is superior for optics especially in the the ceramic film but as I shift more to DR for privacy does it still translate? Also understand that both Vista and Huper are both owned by Eastman Chemical but Huper Optik seems to be a higher class to Vista and the Panorama is SolarGard's equivalent.

 

Again thanks so much, this has been a wealth of information!

From your description of your glass this job sounds familiar... If you are working with Sun Tamers, your Film 2 glass exception verbal request was taken and approved by me verbally. I asked the Dealer to submit the request in writing so that you the consumer can have an approval in writing. I believe that is where the proverbial ball has been dropped because the Dealer has yet to return the form to me. Please contact them if you want C30, you will have full Standard MFG warranty or the No-Risk upgrade if you wish to purchase it. 

Other low reflective options are Huper Ceramic 35... It performs better than C40 and almost as well as C30. The C35 is less reflective than most 35% vlt dual reflectives. 

Dual reflective films are solid options but you but you have to mount a decent size sample to the glass next to the lower reflective products and ask yourself the critical questions; “Which Film looks the best on my home?” and “Whic Film meets my visual expectations?” I’m with Tom... I wouldn’t go much lower than 35% on a DR film for a residence. HOA approval is going to be a must if they have CC&R’s regarding reflective films. My experience in CA is that most associations approve 15% VLR to the exterior or lower. Anything higher meets with push back from the design review committees. 

You won't have a problem unless:

-The glass edge is chipped

-There is a condition creating a 50F difference or > in surface temperature on annealed glass

You will have:

-No glass breakage warranty

-Depending on the auto film you choose, most likely less performance than a film designed for flat glass

23 hours ago, hipertec said:

New to high end window film.  I recently purchased a new Audi R8 and wanting to tint the windows.  Heard that ceramic tint is where I need to go but I know its very costly. 

With that said, I have a few shops to go with:

1. One uses Huper Optik Autobahn series auto tint.  

2. Other uses Rayno Carbon Ceramic Film. 

3. The last shop only has the Solar Gard Ultra Performance Film *NOT the PLUS* (which I dont think its fully ceramic?)

 

Can you chime in to see what is the best and what I should expect to pay for them? 

Is the Solar Gard Ultra Performance tint good since its not a ceramic tint?

Also, whats the difference from the HO Autobahn series tint then from their website? 

 

I will want to go Medium on the doors and dark on the quarter panel and back rear window.   

Looking for heat protection and clarity of the film.  Is there any other recommendation for other tint films I should look at?  

 

Huper Ceramic is 100% non-dye/non-carbon with the highest performance in that group. Autobahn is a film line developed by Huper Optik USA. Rayno is still sorting out their issues. SG UP is not ceramic according to their website.

I know most of the shops in So Cal... who are you considering? You can have the best film in the world all picked out for your car. However, if the installing company is sub par then what you will be left with is a great window film poorly installed on your vehicle.

TSER and SHGC figures both account for and include absorbed and re-radiated solar energy. Films either reflect energy, absorb energy or do a little of both. A high absorber will "feel" warmer in the immediate vicinity of the glass surface but when you factor in the reduction in absorbed IR by interior surfaces then you can start to understand why the total energy transmission figure is equal or better than its lower absorbing counterpart.

10 hours ago, PenguinTint said:

 

Great idea! I'm getting samples to mount to do a side by side compare. 

 

I did find out from the installers that since Hilite contains silver oxide which is prone to corrosion especially near the cost, all the edges are required to be sealed which jumps the cost and labor up to $15/sqft :(. With 8 separate panels that just sounds like multiple points of failures in the future even though I know there's a lifetime warranty, but being low maintenance and worry-free is always welcomed.

 

Comparing the CX50 (which also states it's free of dyes and metals) vs Huper Optik C50 is the 2ply for C50 worth the premium cost? I know based on the specs it's a bit better performing (TSER 50% vs 47%) with lower reflectivity (10/10 vs 13/11), but does the 2-ply also help with long-term durability? Does the same logic apply as with tissue paper where 2-ply is better then 1-ply?  I don't mind the extra cost if there's value of what you're getting. Of course I'll put them side by side and compare the optics which I've heard HO is better.

 

From what I can tell Vista has two lines that have ceramics: the Harmony Terre V51 which mixes precious metals with ceramic and the one I mentioned which is Ceramic 45 containing only ceramic. Spec wise it's the lowest performing in the batch but still at 45 TSER better than sputtered. Or still not worth considering? Trying to narrow down choices.

 

In general do all spectral select films use precious metals that are prone to corrosion? I was also looking at Suntek ULVDS 50 but if that's also prone to corrosion then will rule that one out too.

 

Also the installers have been emphasizing that being a Panorama dealer is a special class. Do these installers go through additional training or application process? Or just a membership to buy into? Curious how much can I use it as a proxy/indication of being a reputable and high quality installer? It does say "Elite Dealer Network" so does this imply the most of the installers are all elite installers and best of class?

 

Thanks a bunch!

 

 

In my experience "Elite Networks" and "Special Training" is nothing but marketing fluff. An "Elite Network" is simply a group of dealers that have access to products that the rest of the dealer organization does not have access too. In this case Panorama dealers are Solar Gard dealers that have access to Panorama films made by the same MFG that the rest of the Solar Gard network does not have access to. Does that make them "Elite" or better than other window film dealers? No, they simply are given access to the Panorama line usually because they make some kind of special commitment to promoting that line of film.

"Special training" is usually done by the MFG which is not uncommon throughout the industry. My issue with training. A trained installer is not necessarily a "capable" installer. There is no MFG guarantee that you as a consumer will have a capable installer working on your home even though they market their dealer network as "trained." What if the trained installer gets fired or leaves on Friday and today you get a new hire working on your house? Can Panorama or any MFG control that? Nope. What if the MFG trainer lacks the experience or skill to properly train installers? I know some of these folks and I can tell you that they do not install film on a regular basis and yet they are the ones teaching others... mostly from a book or manual. I don't recommend buying into this fluff. Get references, go with that gut feeling you get when you have confidence in a company rather than compromising that feeling for a lower price. Remember Ben Franklin's quote: " The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."

Ok, let's talk tech... Your desire to research is very commendable.

"Spectral Select" is a descriptive term with a qualifier. All films are filters that "select" or more accurately "allow" certain wavelengths of the solar spectrum to pass thru the film. The industry gives the term "spectrally select" to films of all compositions that have a Luminous Efficacy (LE) of 1.0 or >. Most films in that class are "Sputtered" and use rare metals like silver and gold. Is it possible for a non-metal film to be spectrally select? Yes, there are a few but they are expensive and many use IR absorbing dyes which have limited lifespans before their effectivety starts to diminish. "Sputtering" is a manufacturing process that is very precise way layering of coatings in 1 atom thick layers. It is expensive but it yields the best optical qualities. Huper Select and Ceramic, Panorama Hilite, Vista VS 60/70, 3M ceramic are all sputtered films.

If you "install" (don't tape them) samples to the window, you will see the differences in optical quality from one film to the next. Let the sun come through at angle and you will probably be able to pick out the Vista films because they tend to exhibit 'low angle haze.' Panorama CX is a new product for them so that is the risk you may be taking. Dual layer is a must have in toilet paper and worth the added expense. In film, dual layer is incorporated to reduce reflectivity . It does not enhance the durability. So in the case of a dye-free ceramic like Huper, they patented dual layer technology to reduce the reflectivity of their ceramics without the use of dyes, carbon or pigments. Again, pllace both product next to each other and you will see differences.

SunTek UVLDS... Just place it up next to the others and let the sun shine through it. I've seen consumer complaints about the higher vlt's not rejecting enough heat. You can use your hand or face to determine if it meets your expectation. Stay away from BTU meters... those are misleading. 

Bottom line... You can pick the best film in the world but if the company that installs this film does not do a great job, then you are left with a great film that is poorly installed. Get references, go with who you are most comfortable doing business with. Look at the installed samples and choose what looks nice and balances out with everything mentioned in this thread. Window film is one of the most effective and least expensive energy saving upgrades that you can put on your home... that is a fact.  

If you want to PM me, I know a lot of the companies in your area. I'd be happy to give you additional input.

Thanks so much for the info!
 
I pulled the specs of the flat ceramics I'm considering and they seem fairly close to each other.
 
Using single pane measurement specs:
For Panorama CX50: $1000
- VLT: 51%
- TSER: 47%
- Reflectance Ext: 13%
- Reflectance Int: 11%
- Glare Reduction: 44%
 
For Palisade PD50: $1400
- VLT: 50%
- TSER: 48%
- Reflectance Ext: 13%
- Reflectance Int: 11%
- Glare Reduction: 44%
 
For HO C50: $1350
- VLT: 50%
- TSER: 50%
- Reflectance Ext: 10%
- Reflectance Int: 10%
- Glare Reduction: 45%
 
For 3M CM50: $1370
- VLT: 53%
- TSER: 47%
- Reflectance Ext: 12%
- Reflectance Int: 10%
- Glare Reduction: 40%
 
LLumar Vista Ceramic45: $1000
- VLT: 49%
- TSER: 45%
- Reflectance Ext: 9%
- Reflectance Int: 9%
- Glare Reduction: 46%
 
Some questions:
1) So I do see that the CX on the TSER metric is lower performing but is 47% vs 50% (6% diff) that significant for such a large price difference (25%)?
2) Seems comparing the performance of CX vs Palasides and 3M Ceramic the specs are in the similar range that CX seems the better economical choice. Any reason why that's a bad choice to go with?
3) I know Hyper Optik is 2-ply ceramic which is a selling point but is that worth the 25% premium? Do 3M, Hyper Optik, and Johnson Window Films run at premium -- is quality that much better? 
4) Plus at the Hyper Optik price point I might as well get Hilite 55 which will give me greater VLT: 59%, lower reflectivity and a higher TSER 56% but the trade-off for more light is less glare reduction only 34% which not sure if that's enough to cut the glare going to the flatscreen . Any rule of thumb on how much glare reduction is needed for TV watching?
 
Thanks a bunch!

A ceramic Film can be considered “spectrally select” if the LE is 1.0 or greater... but most spectral select films contain rare metals.

The higher the LE ratio the more you will most likely pay for the Film because high LE films are complex and more expensive to make.

The highest IR reducer (780-2500nm) with the lowest SHGC and VLR @ 35% VLT would be Huper Optik Drei at 98%IRR and a 0.30 SHGC and a 12% VLR. A very unique film...

Panorama Ceramic is actually a poorer performer than other available ceramics. Compare their SHGC’s and you will see where Panorama CX comes up short.

Nice opportunity at the IWFA show for Rick to discuss that topic with Darrel Smith, Mark Carlson, Lisa Winkler to name a few that were there... How come he does not bring this topic up in that circle of professionals?

It is very simple... Huper Optik USA and Edge Technologies are sister companies. They utilize the same distribution network which is the largest in the country with over 15 locations throughout the USA and Canada. Autobahn is a program and label that allows Huper to be sold in conjunction with the films that Eastman would not allow to be sold under the Huper Optik label due to competing conflict with Llumar and SunTek products. Edge is a Film brand that serves the same purpose. Eastman does not own either of the these two brands which does not make them subject to Eastman control. The advantage being that they can spec their own films and have them made by the best manufacture rather than being tied to one factory. That allows for a more versatile lineup with more local points of distribution in North America than any other film brands.

If you did see their booths with the new materials and Films at the IWFC show, you may want to check out what is new because a lot has changed in the past year.

Sangbo 

Looking good!

Dawn or any equivalent that contains a degreaser and or hand softening agent will affect the adhesive's ability to adhere long term. We would use Dawn and Palmolive for SS films back in the day before anti-graffiti adhesives hit the market. There was a marked difference in removing safety adhesive compared to film that was installed with J&J.

Not only is the radiant energy accounted for but you can plug a ceramic film's SHGC and Tvis into BIM software just the same as you can with a metalized film and determine KwH reduction. The KwH savings of comparable SHGC films in a building can be very similar in many cases and sometimes better in a whole building analysis due to the ceramic film's higher LE.

In automotive the IR filtration does affect the comfort level of the occupants even when the environment is conditioned by AC. For instance, the Ceramic 50 in my car feels much more comfortable to sit behind than the darker 30% vlt metal film in my other car. 

Not all ceramics are completely absorbing, some ceramic films do reflect varying amounts of solar energy as well as absorb. you cannot accurately lump them all into the same basket.

Cost is a different issue. Different requirements necessitate different film technologies. Sometimes as Howard mentioned, you need less reflective technology, sometimes you need non-corrosive or even dye-free film. Ceramics give you those options but you have to pay for them... simple truth.

As far as gimmicks... I would say that a respected agency such the NFRC would never allow for skewed ratings to prevent an accurate apples to apples energy comparison on clear glass. And the NFRC does in fact have ratings for some ceramic films, good ones at that.

Metal is not the be-all / solve-all solution in window film and the same is true for ceramics. That is why we sell great products in both technologies.

Interestingly, they are starting to find out that metal reflective technology can buy you a massive amount of environmental liability if you are not careful. This will no doubt change the way we spec films in some instances.
 

  Nice post Howard

The most durable of the 2 films wins

 

I have used efilm and and i dont think it is that great. 

 

I agree with you. EFilm has a lot of inherent things that allow for inaccurate results to the point where it is not considered "qualified" building software for calculating commercial building tax deductions.

The other problem is that the accuracy of a BIM software result is inherently dependent on the knowledge and experience of the operator. Similar to what a window film DIY'r install is in comparison to that of an experienced professional but with more expensive consequences.

Burns,

The best way to check your BIM method is to have a project retro commissioned. Not easy, not cheap but it will show you whether your method is conservative or overestimated. 

Half the time that method never works up in the PNW because it is always cloudy. Bottom line you need to get your films into the IGDB, I did 6 audits today and if we used that method it would take a week.