Automotive film specs are not what you think!

vquestfilms.com · October 2, 2013

Ralph,

I'm not trying to beat you up. I really appreciate the effort to product a quality marketing piece that gets the word out about window film. Your branding is high quality, your methodical approach is easy to understand, and your demonstrations have the potential to be really good. My problem was with the mis-information that even mislead some pros here. As Smartie explained, we can easily take things out of context and send an inaccurate message that hurts the industry as a whole. Imagine taking a presentation like yours before a group of engineers... they would put the smack down on you for not including the visible spectrum in your demonstration and I for one do not want to see that happen to any supplier or dealer because it hurts us all.

Most here know that I sell ceramic film amongst many other film technologies and I know from experience that there is a great place for these films in the automotive industry as well as the flat glass industry. Some of the ceramic products are among the most durable films on the market, they are resistant to corrosion, the sputtered variety have amazing optical properties, and they can filter out a significant amount of solar energy which makes them a good value and a nice option in certain circumstances. So I get as excited as you do, (without the accent :lol ) when presenting this technology of film.

It frustrates me that the IR bulbs are still widely used in demonstrations. The sales kits that we sell even have them and I have been trying to get this changed to Halogen bulbs. I also await for another respected organization to come along and validate the newer 49|48|2 understanding of the Solar Spectrum. We are in a sort of limbo as far as the general consensus goes but at least enough is understood about the energy distribution in each region to know that we cannot exclude one and only measure the other calling that a total solar measurement. Meters also need to be put into context because they too have their limits on what they can measure and how accurately they are able to interpret the results. The most accurate affordable portable measuring device that I know of is EDTM's Solar Spectrum Meter. You might want to pick one up for your demonstrations.

Building a film brand takes a lot of blood, sweat, and tears. I have the utmost respect for you and anyone else that can pull it off by adding a product and dealer network that enhances our industry. I would encourage you to produce another video and just tweek some of the inaccuracies. If you need some help or suggestions, feel free to call me. We might compete on some level but I'd rather help a competitor put together something factual because it will inevitably benefit us all.

I wish you the best in your endeavors. :beer

EWF · October 2, 2013

For what it’s worth – let me weigh in here and cast my lot with Rob & Smartie. Kudos to Ralph for the presentation and the effort. Launching a private label is a massive undertaking and I join with Rob, Smartie and many others here in wishing Ralph the best.

But the entire premise of the video was not on solid ground from a technical standpoint. If anything, it succeeded in reminding us of how poorly understood these concepts are. In that respect, I am genuinely sorry that the video was taken down and would urge Ralph to reconsider that decision. These heat lamp demonstrations can mislead a consumer into picking Film-A and declining Film-B, even though film-B is the better performer. That video was the clearest demonstration of that concept I have ever seen. Ralph explained that a competing product had a higher TSER, yet his own product (with the lower TSER) felt cooler in the test. It is natural to conclude that the film which felt cooler was the better performer, but as those who really know this topic understand - that would have been the entirely wrong conclusion.

Albert Einstein had many famous quotes. One of my favorite ones is this:

If you can’t explain it to a 5 year old, you probably don’t understand it yourself. In other words, when it comes to explaining a complex concept, simplicity should always be your goal. In this vein, I try to explain it consumers this way:

The sun’s energy present at the earth’s surface is across a very wide spectral range (From 250-2,500nm).
All of this energy will heat your home, your car, your workspace
When assessing the performance of any film – you must consider the entire spectral range (not just a narrow bandwidth). Hence, you should look at the TSER. That is what architects do. They do not use “Wow Boxes” to make glazing decisions.
Heat lamp bulbs don’t come anywhere close to replicating the entire solar spectrum
Just look at the TSER. That’s what architects do. That’s what the NFRC does. That’s what the IWFA recommends.

I know very well that our competitors are out there giving dealers these wow boxes to sell film with. At EWF, we do not endorse that practice. We believe that it is both misleading and deceptive. We encourage consumers as well as industry professionals to consider the TSER when assessing the performance. There are always other considerations that go into film selection (optics, durability and aesthetics). But when you are talking performance – TSER is king.

-Howard

Jake · October 2, 2013

This has been a great thread. I have learned a lot from it. My question is, can we trust the TSER rating that are given to us by the film companys? How is that regulated so we are compairing apples to apples? I have seen posts in passing that vquest has writen about third party testing. Can somebody go more in depth about that?

Glass Tinting Supplies · October 3, 2013

Love the passion Ralph.. You can not learn that at college, it comes from within.

I must agree though with some of the others and say that I was confused when you were talking about solar energy, not being heat..

None the less, what stuck in my mind is the fact that if the very people who install window film, and need to advise to a customer as to what the best product is based on its heat rejection performance or (TSER) are confused as to how the films can be distinguished from one to the next, then why can't the manufacturers break it down in a way that can be easier understood?

Why can't a third party test and rate each film based on exactly what you were touching on in the video?.. Occupant comfort level?

I guess they could build a star rating system that would clearly and easily explain to a customer that the higher the star rating, the higher the driver comfort. But the fact of the matter is, it would be rated based almost completely on Total Solar Energy Rejection over the entire solar spectrum. Unless there is another way that I haven't heard of?

Why is making things simple, always so hard?

You should make another video Ralph.. I would focus on the tinter from Alabama that is passionate about the product he believes in.

All the best.

Tint Eastwood · October 3, 2013

Love how a good salesman can bend the truth to the limit without breaking it. Good presentation Ralph, I was just about to throw my wallet at the screen when you got to TSER.

vquestfilms.com · October 3, 2013

This has been a great thread. I have learned a lot from it. My question is, can we trust the TSER rating that are given to us by the film companys? How is that regulated so we are compairing apples to apples? I have seen posts in passing that vquest has writen about third party testing. Can somebody go more in depth about that?

Great question Jake!

Traditionally, most film manufactures would use 3mm (1/8") clear 85% vlt +/- single pane glass as the substrate to apply and take performance measurements of their products. You would see these measurements on what we casually refer to as "spec cards" or on various charts and product literature. The TSER, SC, and SHGC listed on these materials is what we refer too as "center of glass" (COG) measurements, which means they exclude factoring in a window frame.

To get a COG measurement you could use several methods. First, if you owned a $100k + photospectrometer, you could run a whole bunch of fancy equations and come up with your own numbers. Or, you could contract out a laboratory to do pretty much the same thing. Or, you can use LBNL software and get some performance numbers from that. Each method employes certain known standards, such as NFRC 300, ISO 9050, and I believe there are a few others. Each will get you a slightly different result because they all factor in differing variables and there are a ton of variables. Some manufactures have their own company standard that they test too, which can be whatever they want to measure. That one scares me but you can usually find ways to poke holes into such marketing.

So therein lies your question. How do we in the USA come apples to apples? This is where the NFRC has been of great value. They are a 3rd party performance rating organization for fenestration products and were conceived for this vary reason. Window films finally gained entrance into NFRC Certification and you can find many rated films at NFRC.org.

What is the difference between an NFRC figure and a COG figure? The NFRC performance value includes the whole window system that window film is incorporated into and gives you the Tvis, SHGC, and U Factor of that whole fenestration system. There are a handful of different glass scenarios and you can compare all films in the NFRC Applied Films Catalog to one another and get the closest most reliable apples to apples comparison.

Interestingly, the NFRC employes the measurement of all 3 regions in the Solar Spectrum because that is what a total performance measurement is. But like all things, NFRC ratings do not solve all problems. For one thing, you will not see a lot of automotive films in the catalog nor will you see the window film industry's classic TSER measurement. Another problem is that NFRC does not include every glass type so a lot of times you cannot get a completely accurate figure if the glass you are dealing with is different from the NFRC table.

Personally, I tend to side with most of these methods over a heat demo box. When we model buildings, the software we use does not ask for the heat demo box result. Thus my concern about the OP's method.