3ms prestige

[Guest teamfutaba]

You sure are nice V, I wasn't going to give him the link after he accused me of being you and talking to myself then proceeding to call me a "professional sidestepper".

Dry I'm sure you are a nice guy with a professional shop doing fine work but man you gotta get off of the big red ether can. It's like a dr*g and they got you hooked. Consider this a friendly intervention from your buddies V4V & vc.

Yeah, I have a way with words. thanks for the link. ill read it tomorrow. RR

[Guest tintgod]

The blog god has posted.

I like how he used the word "Prestige" in a lot of his blog entries, is that so if someone is doing a search for 3m prestige window film..he get hits off it?

so he is actually using the key work "prestige" to get hits for his blog...very smart.

[Guest pmuzik]

Just like the good old days

[TintDude]

Allow me to throw a little gasoline on the fire...

I understand that all these testing certification alphabet soups use a 90º angle for testing, but in real life, when is the sun ever at 90º angle to the glass?

Shouldn't they be testing at a more realistic angle to allow for films that take advantage of the interference pattern of light in the construction?

If a film can perform better (not saying one film does or doesn't, I'm a neutral observer) at realistic angles while allowing higher VLT, shouldn't that be a metric as well?

[Guest vclimber]

Allow me to throw a little gasoline on the fire...

I understand that all these testing certification alphabet soups use a 90º angle for testing, but in real life, when is the sun ever at 90º angle to the glass?

Shouldn't they be testing at a more realistic angle to allow for films that take advantage the interference pattern of light in the construction?

If a film can perform better (not saying one film does or doesn't, I'm a neutral observer) at realistic angles while allowing higher VLT, shouldn't that be a metric as well?

Flame on!

Very good question TD...

This is a real tough one to explain... first think of energy intensity. At what angles is energy striking a flat object most intense? 90 degrees, right?

Ok, obviously the sun does not reflect on the windows of a building at a 90 degree orientation all day, but neither does it do the same at a 60 degree orientation, the sun is constantly moving, and it shines at differing angles (lower angle in the fall, higher in the spring). So how do you keep track of window performance when the dynamics are constantly changing due to the sun's movement and orientation? The answer is that you need some really good software to track all of the variables, crunch them in various equations, and then spit out performance specs.

It can get really complex but there is software that can dial in specific performance, almost every MFG uses it to report performance numbers that you find on spec cards. The 90 degree calculation that Window 5.2 makes accounts for various angles of sunlight.

So, if you were to try and establish a particular film's maximum regulation of total solar energy (rejected or transmitted) wouldn't you want to test it at the most intense angle rather than a less intense angle? I would...

3M infers that the sun works the harder at certain parts of the day than others thus you need a film that works at the hottest part of the day when the sun is on-angle working the hardest. That is not a scientific explanation. The sun works the same 24 hrs a day... it is all about exposure, absorbance, reflectance, and time. Window film is a filter or regulator of electromagnetic wavelengths, simple as that. If you want to know how well it works, throw everything at it full-bore.

[TintDude]

3M infers that the sun works the harder at certain parts of the day than others thus you need a film that works at the hottest part of the day when the sun is on-angle working the hardest. That is not a scientific explanation. The sun works the same 24 hrs a day... it is all about exposure, absorbance, reflectance, and time. Window film is a filter or regulator of electromagnetic wavelengths, simple as that. If you want to know how well it works, throw everything at it full-bore.

I doubt that 3M is arguing that "The sun works harder", that's ridiculous. It is just as you state, " it is all about exposure, absorbance, reflectance, and time. Window film is a filter or regulator of electromagnetic wavelengths" I'm sure that's what 3M has in mind as well.

In a real environment the sun is indeed at an angle. I think a more realistic testing standard should account for that, and films should be built for that as well.

If your favorite film, (insert name here) is build specifically to pass those tests while ignoring on angle performance, you could conceivably build a film that had far less performance at real world exposures all the while showing very high performance numbers on the unrealistic 'tests'.

[micro-edge]

I really don't want part in this discussion cause I know how they turn out but I have a question V. I know how you say the btu meter is only reading a small portion of the ir spectrum but how come if you're in a house in the dead heat of summer in front of a 20 sq. ft. window that is getting blasted by direct sunlight the btu meter is usually reading around 160 btu's and you can put a sample of any pr up and get a reading around 20 whereas most other films usually read around 60 or more? Is this still not getting a full infared spectrum reading this way?

[Guest vclimber]

3M infers that the sun works the harder at certain parts of the day than others thus you need a film that works at the hottest part of the day when the sun is on-angle working the hardest. That is not a scientific explanation. The sun works the same 24 hrs a day... it is all about exposure, absorbance, reflectance, and time. Window film is a filter or regulator of electromagnetic wavelengths, simple as that. If you want to know how well it works, throw everything at it full-bore.

I doubt that 3M is arguing that "The sun works harder", that's ridiculous. It is just as you state, " it is all about exposure, absorbance, reflectance, and time. Window film is a filter or regulator of electromagnetic wavelengths" I'm sure that's what 3M has in mind as well.

In a real environment the sun is indeed at an angle. I think a more realistic testing standard should account for that, and films should be built for that as well.

If your favorite film, (insert name here) is build specifically to pass those tests while ignoring on angle performance, you could conceivably build a film that had far less performance at real world exposures all the while showing very high performance numbers on the unrealistic 'tests'.

That is what is so good about the NFRC Certified Film Specs is that they account for the angular orientation of the sun, there are many different equations that are averaged out into a SHGC. No need for special measurments, it's all inclusive.

What you say could be true but the reality of most films is their performance increases with the sun's angle because that is physics. Clear glass will do the same thing. The reason this whole 90 degree thing is standard is because the engineering community and the glass industry have all rated product performance that way for years. They all use DOE approved software to measure their products performance. You can get angular measurements but the community as a whole (glass, engineering, film, etc) all have used the 90 measurement under NFRC standard condition.

Here's the interesting part... if you want to find out who is lying or um let's be politically correct, adjusting or embellishing their SHGC, even reflectance #'s... just go to the software and check for yourself. There are a few inconsistencies out there that would shock you. If you look at the angular measurements that I listed and check 3M's you will find a difference, I would like to know why theirs is higher than the software says?

Energy measurement is a tough thing to do because a building sits on a sphere (the earth) with the sun constantly changing orientation, there are also shadows that get created, then we have clouds and all of these factors that constantly affect energy transmission. A spec card is not going to address it all.

I really don't want part in this discussion cause I know how they turn out but I have a question V. I know how you say the btu meter is only reading a small portion of the ir spectrum but how come if you're in a house in the dead heat of summer in front of a 20 sq. ft. window that is getting blasted by direct sunlight the btu meter is usually reading around 160 btu's and you can put a sample of any pr up and get a reading around 20 whereas most other films usually read around 60 or more? Is this still not getting a full infared spectrum reading this way?

You are getting the fuller spectrum roughly around 300-2500+nm but the meter only reads between 900-1050nm (depending on the calibration) so that 160 BTU's is only the intensity reading between 900-1050nm everything else is not measured by the meter because it is not designed to do that. The intensity of that particular range is not that high but nonetheless Prestige and some other IR films regulate more energy than other films so that is why you see 20 BTU's for PR 70 and 60 BTU's for others. Again, the more important measurement is SHGC or TSER, a film can have the lowest BTU reading (I've seen 99% IR rejection) but only a 51% TSER.

[TINT]

what I do. I just TOUCH the glass see if its hot or not.

and with my pinky from far away I create and imaginary lazer line that will tell me how much hotter is getting when its morning sunlight and dusk.

[TintJunkie]

Haha...3M, they're so f*cking wiley!!

My film blows everyone out of the water! Why? Because 3M told me so!

Hey V! I hear the 3M film division only makes up 1% of their total business/revenues. Is this true?