My fellow mmm haters

TomTint · August 30, 2009

There are some truths that all of us must face....ALL 3m films are not bad.....but, then again, all of the films we all install are not the best either. Upon discussing this issue with a colleague from Cali. whos company works with large building installation of film, lighting, chillers and whatnot to save energy,when you put actual data into a program designed to proper energy audits of a building (which includes type of glass-clear/tinted/etc,) and the data of the films(with no names) a few 3m films may perform better than others. However, as he stated to me, many of the 3m films do not qualify in the model. The testing data has shown that when you take clear annealed glass, one film will outperform another, but change the glass to a bronze, and the film that worked well on the clear will give worse results than one of the films it beat out on the clear. There are so many variables to look at that blanket statements on how films perform for solar can be wrong. Now, as for construction that is a different story. I am not a fan of their films construction (base material, adhesives, etc.). But, when looking at actual data from an engineering standpoint and the position most of us come from, our blanket statements have not much to back them. Once we, as an industry, are doing the proper dilligence in performing energy audits on larger commercial applications and take the brand name out of it, only using the actual data from the film, we then will be able to unequivocaly say what films (not brands, but single production films) are best. In the end, all mannys will have films that outperform others, but the actual data is what will tell the truth.
What say ye, VC an V4V??

Oh, and I still am not a fan of 3m, just will not blanket bash the product, only the company.(along with their business practices)

VC's response is as usual to the point.

Here goes mine:

I'll try to address your question/statement as best as I can.

If a company has a documented superiority based upon a patented formula, etc. that advantage should be heralded and leveraged by that manufacturer and their dealers. No one would reasonably deny that perspective.

On the other hand; should a company create a false impression about their product solution or make unsupported (by fact, testing or independent corroboration) claims concerning their film's value to a consumer than we should all ethically voice concerns or objections.

The question isn't simply moral equivalence "they said this and we say that." T

he issue becomes relevant particularly when my former company is discussed. 3M stands for something- -or rather should! Let's call it a higher corporate standard based upon their legacy of accomplishment and innovation.

Therefore when 3M makes unsupported claims concerning the efficacy of their film, specifically IR rejection, angles of variation uniquely improving their film TSER so much so, they invented their own test??? How about having a mythical superior scratch coating that can withstand Windex

When I say the 3M hard coat is no better than Llumar's or Solar Gard or Madico, I am not guessing. I am not assuming, rather I know.

If 3M or a 3M dealer pretends that a specific film is superior to another film when in fact it's the same film re-boxed; I am not guessing about that film- -I know.

If/when 3M either intentionally or unintentionally misleads their dealers or consumers and are corrected by the greater industry via white papers issued by Bekaert and CP Films or clarifications by the IWFA you might assume 3M would naturally amend their brochures and send a clarification throughout their dealer base.

When that does not occur, you could scratch your head and sigh "that's just the way it is" or conversely educate those who compete against these falsehoods.

Particular attention should be paid to consumers who might be mislead into thinking they were buying a film that blocked 97% of the heat, or the Sun's energy that somehow works better at 3 PM!

How? Why?

Because that 3M dealer told me so!

Having been accused of self promotion

I'll admit that my bias and primary marketing strategy is to position my window film solutions (Vista-Huper Optik- Lumenesse-Sunscape- SunTek) against 3M, my former company.

Now to those who remember the old me versus the new me or the contradictionof once being the 3M defender and now the contrary here's my defense:

I believed the 3M lab when they hyped the 97% IR and the angle of variation advantage in 2005.

I wrote some darn nice presentations for prestige, frankly in my opinion the best that were ever written on that subject.

I was fooled and I can appreciate more than most how a consumer might also be mislead.

But that was 4 years ago people and to coin a phrase "Fool Me Once. ."

This is exactlly what building owners /managers and every other end user needs to read and understand.

August 31, 2009

Now to those who remember the old me versus the new me or the contradictionof once being the 3M defender and now the contrary here's my defense:
I believed the 3M lab when they hyped the 97% IR and the angle of variation advantage in 2005.

I wrote some darn nice presentations for prestige, frankly in my opinion the best that were ever written on that subject.

I was fooled and I can appreciate more than most how a consumer might also be mislead.

But that was 4 years ago people and to coin a phrase "Fool Me Once. ."

I remember the old you around here. Those were fun times. :lol2

Glad to see you stopped to consider the larger picture, you bring a very unique perspective to the table that no one else can. Well-expressed post you made here. :lol2

September 1, 2009

"No one has more experience with window film than 3M. In 1966, we received the first patent for window film."

This is a quote from their website. I can pull at least a dozen quotes off of dealer websites the say things to the effect 3M invented window film. According to the statement above, is that true? :beer

And what does this statement mean? "no one has more experience with window film than 3M"

September 1, 2009

Damn Vman 3M posts must work like V!AGRA for you, it sure gives you a hard on.

Write a freaking letter to their legal dept. or something. I'm sure there are OTHER brand film dealers that have gray area statements on their websites too that are loosely based on corporate PR. Ask V4V if the legal dept. checked his presentation before it was released if I remember right it was used in San Diego ? I would have to believe that ALL film manny's have PR releases checked for potentially liable information. Write that letter :beer and if their legal eagles were asleep at the wheel then "Good on Ya" and if the individual dealers are in fact using corporate info falsely point it out, They should be made to revise it. All corporations or most I would imagine have some kind of dealer usage requirements for corporate info I know 3M does.

September 1, 2009

Damn Vman 3M posts must work like V!AGRA for you, it sure gives you a hard on.
Write a freaking letter to their legal dept. or something. I'm sure there are OTHER brand film dealers that have gray area statements on their websites too that are loosely based on corporate PR. Ask V4V if the legal dept. checked his presentation before it was released if I remember right it was used in San Diego ? I would have to believe that ALL film manny's have PR releases checked for potentially liable information. Write that letter and if their legal eagles were asleep at the wheel then "Good on Ya" and if the individual dealers are in fact using corporate info falsely point it out, They should be made to revise it. All corporations or most I would imagine have some kind of dealer usage requirements for corporate info I know 3M does.

So... did 3M actually invent window film?

TintJunkie · September 1, 2009

Dont know if 3M was the first, but Madico (Hi(y)-Sil) started making wrapping paper and thought about putting adhesive on it for window film. They created foil wrapping paper. Not sure when that happened exactly though.

Customtinting · September 1, 2009

......and so, another mmm post has run its course................is it time to lock it and start another????? :twocents

September 1, 2009

......and so, another mmm post has run its course................is it time to lock it and start another?????

Why lock it? I have more questions...

TomTint · September 1, 2009

Damn Vman 3M posts must work like V!AGRA for you, it sure gives you a hard on.
Write a freaking letter to their legal dept. or something. I'm sure there are OTHER brand film dealers that have gray area statements on their websites too that are loosely based on corporate PR. Ask V4V if the legal dept. checked his presentation before it was released if I remember right it was used in San Diego ? I would have to believe that ALL film manny's have PR releases checked for potentially liable information. Write that letter and if their legal eagles were asleep at the wheel then "Good on Ya" and if the individual dealers are in fact using corporate info falsely point it out, They should be made to revise it. All corporations or most I would imagine have some kind of dealer usage requirements for corporate info I know 3M does.

Im sure there are several individuals who would gladly be involved in a class action suit if there were a legal firm that saw enough money in a suit. unfortunately not many small business owners have the means to play on the legal merry go round with a corporate conglomerate such as mmm. This said is it possible they know this and intentionally misrepresent data because there is little chance of substantial repercussion if any. Someone somewhere has done a cost analysis and deemed it a non issue to make blanket statements pertaining to first, best, only, we invented etc. Until they are legally challenged and spotlighted we can only expect more of the same.