Thermal Shock Failure -Who Wants To Discuss It?

[EWF]

40 % ...

Hi Slayer !!

40% in Florida ???? You are a very careful man.

I would go all the way to 54 in Florida without hesitation.

-Howard

[Guest filmslayer]

I've had silver 20 break panes down here ...

[TomTint]

I have always been more cautious with IG, again, I don't see a bunch of SP up here.

[vquestfilms.com]

Rob,

Spare me the psychoanalytics. I would have to charge extra to psychoanalize you.

The following manufacturers publish their TSEa:

Panorama

Express

Solar-Gard

Llumar

Vista

Madico Sunscape

Sun-Tek

Madico

Hanita

Johnson

Global

The following do not:

Huper

3M

Madico MAC

VKool

IQue

Nexfil

Luxo

Sputter Technologies

Nano Film

The AIMCAL publication you refer to is older, but has never been supersceeded. They are outdated, glass has changed dramatically. AIMCAL updates other publications, why haven't they upated the window film manual? Case in point: Do all film MFG's have 20+ year old film 2 glass charts?

I follow them. What set of guidelines do you follow? The same guidlines most major MFG's follow.

I am glad to see that you are addressing specifics in your post to Tom, but that much I was aware of.

The specific question is:

All other factors being equal - under what circumstances can a film with a higher TSEa pose a lower risk than a film with a lower TSEa? All factors are rarely if ever equal. Only in a lab are they equal. We are not talking about being in the lab here, we are talking about the field where no two conditions are exact.

A little history:

For me, the last time this was addressed was during a distributor meeting I attended in the early 1990s when I was working exclusively with a USA manufacturer. We were experiencing a spike in thermal cracking with a Nichrome film that was a big volume product. We could not understand why this particular film was breaking so many more windows than another film which had a higher TSEa. It was during a presentation that he explained how TSEa was the primary, but not the only factor. Again - all other factors being equal.

I should have taken better notes during that meeting because that was the only time I heard this discussed. I just can not remember what he told the group. Somehow I seem to remember that the color of the film was a factor - but that could be wrong.

Here the topic came up again and I was hoping that you could explain it. Instead - I am getting your analysis of my motives. I explained why.

If you know the answer great!!! If not, I don't hold it against you. I just wish I knew so I could explain it to others when they ask as well as factor it in to our thermal shock warranty coverage.

-Howard

Adjusted in red for accuracy.

Edit: I forgot one MFG

[vquestfilms.com]

If someone can attach the actual document rather than quoting it, that would help.

AIMCAL WINDOW FILM COMITTEE

Recommendations For Avoiding Glass Failure

Page 2

Last parragraph

You had challenged me on it in a previous thread. I did not challege you.

I remember emailing that to you. Howard I have never received an email from you in my life. Please show me a copy.

I don't have access to it at this moment - but I can get it Monday. I can wait.

They claim that 50-60% TSEa is OK. We stop at 54% Who claims 50-60% is ok. Please show me where.

How about everyone else? What do you consider safe?

-Howard

My replies in red.

[DenMcM]

This was a recent conversation I have had

Q - " Why are the expensive, high TSEa, high end films not having a higher glass failure rate ?"

A - " I think that high end films are mainly installed on high end, well built glazing systems"

[MikeMN]

What about the insurance company's that window film manufacturers use, do they have any say in this, or do they go by what the window film manufactures tell them what is safe, what guide lines do they follow.........?

[vquestfilms.com]

This was a recent conversation I have had

Q - " Why are the expensive, high TSEa, high end films not having a higher glass failure rate ?"

A - " I think that high end films are mainly installed on high end, well built glazing systems"

Good point! There could be a connection there Dennis. I see our films installed on everything from Viking (Home Depot) IGU's to the high end stuff.

I haven't bothered to look at our report for 2011 but our breakage has always been down well below 2%. In regards to our products, if TSEa is the big issue that it is being made out to be then why are our averages so lower than the glazing industry?

[vquestfilms.com]

What about the insurance company's that window film manufacturers use, do they have any say in this, or do they go by what the window film manufactures tell them what is safe, what guide lines do they follow.........?

No say that I know of. As far as I know, lot of MFG's (not distributors) self-fund there warranties so it's hard to say who is wagging the dog.

[vquestfilms.com]

In my little area of the world I really do not see a ton of SP glass, some but not much. The lion share is IG and more recently DP low E of various configurations. I have always been advised to use a product with a SA of 50% or less. Over the past few years with the introduction of dual reflective films.... That ratio has been stretched a bit. This past summer we did 4 stores for a national retailer that had ceramic film as the spec. The windows " to the best of memory " were 48x120 ish. That made me real uncomfortable but it was not my spec it was their standard. I can understand a crack running from a clam on the edge, I can understand partial shading, I guess I do not understand the metric that does not involve SA of some sort

Think about this Tom. If you look at the Llumar and Vista F2G charts over the years. Look at the change in the recommendations for laminated glass. They actually approved more of the higher TSEa films than they used too.

Something to keep in mind is that as the glass edge increases in length then the structural integrity of the glass decreases. There is a ratio but I do not have it with me at the moment. It is factored into F2G recommendations. (I just answered another one of your questions Howard)

Also consider factory IGU's with low VLT glass. How much energy do they absorb. We laser thermometered some glass units that were 155F... I have to imagine that is some substantial TSEa and yet there is no breakage. Why?