How to get out of the Ceramic trap...

[Guest triplejjj]

Your a legend Smarts!

 

I thought about this today, and tried to think from the angle that JJJ is coming from.

 

Would there be a more simple way to demonstrate a realistic situation?

 

If you need a small demonstration that would fit on your workshop bench, then you would be best getting 2 small scale model cars that has glass for windows. Carefully adding small pieces of film to the glass of 1 of the model vehicles, then place an equal sized piece of ice inside both cars then turn on the appropriate 75W halogen globe above both model cars under controlled conditions.

 

What you would see is what happens in "real life". The glass that has the film will reduce the amount of heat transfer and hence the ice will take longer to melt. The model with the film on the glass would remain cooler for only a short time. Eventually both vehicles will reach the same temperature as the glass only plays a small factor in the overall heat transfer that will eventually cause the both cars to be hot inside.

 

Does this mean that you wasted your money JJJ?

The answer in 100% NO. Why?

Because it is the punishment that your panaflex is taking day in and day out that will make it the best investment you can make as an aftermarket addition to your car.

 

It will virtually stop all UVA and UVB rays from damaging not only yours and your families skin, but also it will reduce excessive glare and heat from entering through the glass. The film will be dramatically extend the life our your interior as well as significantly reduce the chance of the occupants of your vehicle from potentially fatal skin deceases that are caused by the sun's rays.

 

In short, your car will get hot, but slower... And the film is preventing materials and items in the car from direct solar energy that will cause your interior to heat up and there for put out further radiating heat inside the vehicles cabin. That simply means that things won't be hot to the touch, but the air inside your cabin will get hot because there are many other factors at play in creating that cabin heat other than the glass.

 

Your vehicle will cool faster when driving and using your air conditioning, and hence you are creating a payback period for your investment.

 

Allow your film to take the beating that the sun will dish out to your car, enjoy a pristine interior for longer, salivate on the knowledge that you and the occupants of your car are protected from damaging solar rays, rub your hands together knowing that you are saving in full costs and hence in a small way helping work toward a more sustainable future.... Also, your car looks radical when tinted!!!

 

Tint rules!

Well I can attest to the skin issues having had a Melanoma once, I thank my lucky stars I'm still  here. Anything you do to help from getting it in the first place

could save your life. If I had it to do over I might opt for a less expensive option since most tints have the same ratings and saved myself a $100.00 bucks in

the process and still get a top of the line product. If someone could tell me how Panoflex out performs the other name brands for the cost difference I would like to know from a consumer point of view.  

thanks for posting

triplejjj

[Tintguy1980]

 

 it clearly shows using an infrared only mimics half the energy from the sun (5% of visible is all it represents) thereby is misleading a client into the ceramic trap.

 

Smart,

 

I hope you don't grow tired of hearing this - but I agree with you 100% once again.  Another terrific post.

 

Advice to anyone that wants to avoid the "Ceramic Trap":  Learn and understand what luminous efficacy is.  The beauty and benefit of the ceramics is that they will give you a higher TSER at a constant VLT.

 

Heat boxes are terrific tools for demonstrating the heat blocking capabilities of window films.  Where they become misleading is when they are used to compare Film A to Film B.  That is when customers (and even some within our industry) fall into the trap.

 

-Howard

 

It's a small-big industry and with that people come, people go and people peter out you know, but I'll keep a teaching through thick or thin; peter out or peter in.

[Tintguy1980]

 

Your a legend Smarts!

 

I thought about this today, and tried to think from the angle that JJJ is coming from.

 

Would there be a more simple way to demonstrate a realistic situation?

 

If you need a small demonstration that would fit on your workshop bench, then you would be best getting 2 small scale model cars that has glass for windows. Carefully adding small pieces of film to the glass of 1 of the model vehicles, then place an equal sized piece of ice inside both cars then turn on the appropriate 75W halogen globe above both model cars under controlled conditions.

 

What you would see is what happens in "real life". The glass that has the film will reduce the amount of heat transfer and hence the ice will take longer to melt. The model with the film on the glass would remain cooler for only a short time. Eventually both vehicles will reach the same temperature as the glass only plays a small factor in the overall heat transfer that will eventually cause the both cars to be hot inside.

 

Does this mean that you wasted your money JJJ?

The answer in 100% NO. Why?

Because it is the punishment that your panaflex is taking day in and day out that will make it the best investment you can make as an aftermarket addition to your car.

 

It will virtually stop all UVA and UVB rays from damaging not only yours and your families skin, but also it will reduce excessive glare and heat from entering through the glass. The film will be dramatically extend the life our your interior as well as significantly reduce the chance of the occupants of your vehicle from potentially fatal skin deceases that are caused by the sun's rays.

 

In short, your car will get hot, but slower... And the film is preventing materials and items in the car from direct solar energy that will cause your interior to heat up and there for put out further radiating heat inside the vehicles cabin. That simply means that things won't be hot to the touch, but the air inside your cabin will get hot because there are many other factors at play in creating that cabin heat other than the glass.

 

Your vehicle will cool faster when driving and using your air conditioning, and hence you are creating a payback period for your investment.

 

Allow your film to take the beating that the sun will dish out to your car, enjoy a pristine interior for longer, salivate on the knowledge that you and the occupants of your car are protected from damaging solar rays, rub your hands together knowing that you are saving in full costs and hence in a small way helping work toward a more sustainable future.... Also, your car looks radical when tinted!!!

 

Tint rules!

Well I can attest to the skin issues having had a Melanoma once, I thank my lucky stars I'm still  here. Anything you do to help from getting it in the first place

could save your life. If I had it to do over I might opt for a less expensive option since most tints have the same ratings and saved myself a $100.00 bucks in

the process and still get a top of the line product. If someone could tell me how Panoflex out performs the other name brands for the cost difference I would like to know from a consumer point of view.  

thanks for posting

triplejjj

 

No need throwing salt on an open wound.

[Guest triplejjj]

 

 

Your a legend Smarts!

 

I thought about this today, and tried to think from the angle that JJJ is coming from.

 

Would there be a more simple way to demonstrate a realistic situation?

 

If you need a small demonstration that would fit on your workshop bench, then you would be best getting 2 small scale model cars that has glass for windows. Carefully adding small pieces of film to the glass of 1 of the model vehicles, then place an equal sized piece of ice inside both cars then turn on the appropriate 75W halogen globe above both model cars under controlled conditions.

 

What you would see is what happens in "real life". The glass that has the film will reduce the amount of heat transfer and hence the ice will take longer to melt. The model with the film on the glass would remain cooler for only a short time. Eventually both vehicles will reach the same temperature as the glass only plays a small factor in the overall heat transfer that will eventually cause the both cars to be hot inside.

 

Does this mean that you wasted your money JJJ?

The answer in 100% NO. Why?

Because it is the punishment that your panaflex is taking day in and day out that will make it the best investment you can make as an aftermarket addition to your car.

 

It will virtually stop all UVA and UVB rays from damaging not only yours and your families skin, but also it will reduce excessive glare and heat from entering through the glass. The film will be dramatically extend the life our your interior as well as significantly reduce the chance of the occupants of your vehicle from potentially fatal skin deceases that are caused by the sun's rays.

 

In short, your car will get hot, but slower... And the film is preventing materials and items in the car from direct solar energy that will cause your interior to heat up and there for put out further radiating heat inside the vehicles cabin. That simply means that things won't be hot to the touch, but the air inside your cabin will get hot because there are many other factors at play in creating that cabin heat other than the glass.

 

Your vehicle will cool faster when driving and using your air conditioning, and hence you are creating a payback period for your investment.

 

Allow your film to take the beating that the sun will dish out to your car, enjoy a pristine interior for longer, salivate on the knowledge that you and the occupants of your car are protected from damaging solar rays, rub your hands together knowing that you are saving in full costs and hence in a small way helping work toward a more sustainable future.... Also, your car looks radical when tinted!!!

 

Tint rules!

Well I can attest to the skin issues having had a Melanoma once, I thank my lucky stars I'm still  here. Anything you do to help from getting it in the first place

could save your life. If I had it to do over I might opt for a less expensive option since most tints have the same ratings and saved myself a $100.00 bucks in

the process and still get a top of the line product. If someone could tell me how Panoflex out performs the other name brands for the cost difference I would like to know from a consumer point of view.  

thanks for posting

triplejjj

 

No need throwing salt on an open wound.

 

LOL, thanks

[TTS]

 

Triplejjj,

 

I don't think anyone has said that opting for a ceramic is a waste of money.....  You definitely are enjoying benefits that are not found in differently constructed films.

The Heat box demo is not a 'trick' .... it is simply a way to convey that film 'A' will block more heat than film 'B' ...   

 

A lot of what these guys are talking about in this thread are when you start comparing performance numbers of competing ceramic films.....  Types of 'ceramic'  film construction exist that block wider bands of the Infra Red spectrum....  but don't get that confused with ' I should have bought a straight dyed film because ceramic is a lie ' ........     The film is most definitely more effective than the cheaper alternative.. make no mistake about that!  

 

 

 

* edit was because I am apparently too inept to effectively use the 'Quote' function

[Guest triplejjj]

 

 

Triplejjj,

 

I don't think anyone has said that opting for a ceramic is a waste of money.....  You definitely are enjoying benefits that are not found in differently constructed films.

The Heat box demo is not a 'trick' .... it is simply a way to convey that film 'A' will block more heat than film 'B' ...   

 

A lot of what these guys are talking about in this thread are when you start comparing performance numbers of competing ceramic films.....  Types of 'ceramic'  film construction exist that block wider bands of the Infra Red spectrum....  but don't get that confused with ' I should have bought a straight dyed film because ceramic is a lie ' ........     The film is most definitely more effective than the cheaper alternative.. make no mistake about that!  

 

 

 

* edit was because I am apparently too inept to effectively use the 'Quote' function

 

Sentence One.....They did not nor did I.

       ''         Two.....I'm sure I am.

       ''      Three.....I didn't say that. Read my post, I said it was presented in a way that I believed would keep my vehicle cooler. Actually this conversation migrated from another

topic I started, if you would like the whole thing it can be found here. http://www.tintdude.com/forum/index.php/topic/77275-vehicle-still-hot-after-getting-it-tinted/#entry1167545

I'm trying to be fare here, plainly the way it was demoed led me to believe the vehicle would stay that way(not hot). Not that it was implied mind you but please note that when I went in and inquired about it, I had this miss belief that if I tint my windows maybe my vehicle would be a little cooler after siting all day in the sun. OK, I know that's not the case now. Ignorance on my part, lack of knowledge whatever you would like to call it. Having said that, if I showed someone that demonstration and let the customer draw their own conclusion without informing them on what it specifically does than I should therefore expect them to come back and complain that it doesn't work. Also I know that, myself included that sometimes

when I explain something, and what I'm thinking is two different things. The other person draws their own conclusion and tries to make something out of what I said and really it wasn't at all what I was thinking. You really can't expect a customer to know that this film does this or that with ir,uv ect. But the very fact that you put a hand in from of a hot light and put some film in front of it and it's magically not hot anymore  not expect them to believe it won't keep that car cool. Does anyone seriously believe that a customer would say to themselves, geeze

this film is going to block ir and uv or solar energy and say to themselves they can feel the difference. No, their first response in their mind is not hot, car cool, I'm sold. 

A fine example would be my optometrist was trying her darndest to sell me polarized glasses. Not once did she say hey these are not good for digital devices, gas pumps, cell phones, iPads, gps or the like. Had I not known I would have had paid extra for polarized glasses that would be useless for what I needed them for. If I had known the right questions to ask then

it wouldn't be a problem but Im not in the tint business either. Anyway sorry for the long rant. I just want everyone to know my viewpoint here. I really appreciate everyones comments

favorably or not I learned a great deal here.

thanks

triplejjj

[Glass Tinting Supplies]

I totally understand your view point JJJ.

It should be 100% clearly stated when people use these techniques to demonstrate the solar performance of a product that the heat reduction that is achieved it purely that of the glass and not of the vehicle as a whole.

 

On a side note, (IMO) I see the whole glass over a sealed box and a heat lamp as a sales trick, and as we have just learned from your experience that when it is not correctly explained it can miss lead customers. With that said, it can clearly demonstrate the advantages of using a ceramic film as apposed to a dye based product. Your $100 extra was money well spent sir.

[TintJunkie]

 

 

Triplejjj,

 

I don't think anyone has said that opting for a ceramic is a waste of money.....  You definitely are enjoying benefits that are not found in differently constructed films.

The Heat box demo is not a 'trick' .... it is simply a way to convey that film 'A' will block more heat than film 'B' ...   

 

A lot of what these guys are talking about in this thread are when you start comparing performance numbers of competing ceramic films.....  Types of 'ceramic'  film construction exist that block wider bands of the Infra Red spectrum....  but don't get that confused with ' I should have bought a straight dyed film because ceramic is a lie ' ........     The film is most definitely more effective than the cheaper alternative.. make no mistake about that!  

 

 

 

* edit was because I am apparently too inept to effectively use the 'Quote' function

 

 I will!  For auto, ceramic may be a good option, otherwise, for flat glass, ceramic films are a waste of my customers money.  As a flat glass dealer, I simply cannot justify or try to convince someone they need a ceramic film.  Why?  There are too many metal films out there today that have low ext reflectivity at a low vlt that performs very close to a ceramic at the same VLT, and cost far less.  The ONLY ceramic film that I can think of that nothing compares to is Drei.  However, be real.  Not only is the film insanely priced, would anyone believe the longevity of the film would last as long as a similar (or as close as one could get to it) metal film, or be more efficient?  Is it any wonder why Huper, founded on ceramic films, has 2 or 3 lines of metal films now?  One might argue its because they want to stay competitive, but I guarantee they want to push the ceramic line, or generically, one might argue the longevity of the dye.  My argument to that is, a hotter film (absorption) will fail faster.  I can't argue the performance of their ceramic film...they are great performers, but Im certainly not convinced it would be the best option (by any mfg for flat glass), as my opinion is metal films are #1 best option.  This is in no intended to single out Huper, as bar none, they do have the best performing ceramic films.  If it helps, Madico has made a pathetic attempt at ceramic films.  Looks great, but is far behind the curve.

 

 

Anyone seen Hanita's Natura line???  

[Glass Tinting Supplies]

Hey TintJunkie

Glad I can finally direct a post your way

 

Things may be about to change in the way of a low reflective ceramic option. There is a gentleman here in Aussie land who has had a product specified to be constructed that is changing everything we know about flat glass tinting here in Aus..

 

Here is an image of the film that was installed yesterday.. Matrix Ceramic. Amazing TSER and IR rejection. BOPP liner and install is as easy as it gets. The price is.. well.. refreshing to say the least, but the lads using it are getting top dollar for the install..

 

 

This is the 15% VLT version. The colour is about as neutral as it comes. This will become 1 of the most popular residential window films ever in Australia. And it is not the first time this person has produced a number 1 selling flat glass film.

 

The first time I used it was on my own home.. I had Vista V28 on my afternoon facing glass. My (MRS) boss insisted that we replace it with the same VLT film but with something that would give back our mobile and WIFI reception. After I installed it I asked her, "what would you change about this film?" She said "Nothing, it is perfect"

 

Lets just say that I have never heard those words come out of my wife's mouth.. She is impossible to please, so when she was happy about a film like this that allowed us good heat rejection and gave us mobile phone reception back I was in total disbelief.

 

This is not the last time you will hear the word Matrix, and not have a thing to do with Keanu Reeves

http://www.ultragard.com.au/architectual-matrix.php

[TintJunkie]

Ok, thats all fine and well, but I would want to see how it compares to a metal film.  I want to explore price to purchase, SHGC, TSER, and mounting adhesive.  There are many in my area that swear by ceramics, and that is fine.  My customers are informed of the difference, and 99 out of 100, choose the metal.