ex 3M dealer still a fan

PJF · March 17, 2011

they have a top corner of film pulled away from the glass with one hand and a squeegee in the other hand getting ready to lay it back down........

You mean that is not how you install? :lol2

I understand why they try to take a pic like that, but it still looks stupid every time I see it.

TomTint · March 17, 2011

PJF. I tried to post this under your post but was not able to do so. I do not have access to all MMM S internal reports but the info I do have I stated earlier. I can not tell you weather they sell more film than anyone else or not. I can tell you if they sold 50% of the worlds film and that number was x . Than they are down in relation to overall market saturation now. Is it possible the data sheet you were shown, you looked at it on angle. Because the specs look better that way! ...... I could not resist !

PJF · March 17, 2011

PJF. I tried to post this under your post but was not able to do so. I do not have access to all MMM S internal reports but the info I do have I stated earlier. I can not tell you weather they sell more film than anyone else or not. I can tell you if they sold 50% of the worlds film and that number was x . Than they are down in relation to overall market saturation now. Is it possible the data sheet you were shown, you looked at it on angle. Because the specs look better that way! ...... I could not resist !

Nice!! :lol I actually thought that was a bit funny myself.

Anyway, regarding your comment, it is possible to be growing as a company in real terms, and have your market share percentage decrease slightly. I am not sure if this is true of 3M or not. Not sure it really matters. If you sell more film than anyone else in the world, your market share is larger than anyone else in the world. It would not surprise me if everyone's market "share" has declined in recent years as there are so many more film companies nibbling away at the pie. Fact is that in gross $ and square footage, 3M is growing. As long as that is happening, they are headed in the right direction.

Also, far from sleeping at the wheel as you suggested, I have never seen 3M more engaged in window film in my 12+ years in this industry. :lol2

V4V · March 17, 2011

PJF. I tried to post this under your post but was not able to do so. I do not have access to all MMM S internal reports but the info I do have I stated earlier. I can not tell you weather they sell more film than anyone else or not. I can tell you if they sold 50% of the worlds film and that number was x . Than they are down in relation to overall market saturation now. Is it possible the data sheet you were shown, you looked at it on angle. Because the specs look better that way! ...... I could not resist !

The 3M talkers don't have their numbers either so not to worry.

Solutia remains number 1 for all that is worth particularly given their aquisition of Novamatrix V-Kool, IQUE and Huper Optik.

3M is a distant second thanks to their international sales in particular Asia and the Pac Rim.

Obviously Solutia and Bekaert have focused on these markets given the opportunity. 3M has had a head start based on their subs throughout the region and Sumitomo 3M.

But similar to the USA. 3M is at a disadvantage in their portfolio. They lose compared to superior films and since a major portion of their film portfolio is made by another company they have very little capability to improve their performance.

This is all wonderful talking points at dealer meetings to stir up pride and tribal thinking but here's the real deal.

Winning or losing is local. You have to be in front of a customer making your best case.

If you are 3M you talk up the brand.

If you compete against them you educate your prospect about NFRC ratings, testing and appearance and you should seldom lose.

Substance over logo. Value over talk.

Why?

Because despite what some people may like to believe consumers are much smarter than they have ever been before.

The folks in China will figure it out once they get their hands on better solutions. Then we have to hope they buy it rather than trying to knock them off!

PJF · March 17, 2011

The 3M talkers don't have their numbers either so not to worry.
Solutia remains number 1 for all that is worth particularly given their aquisition of Novamatrix V-Kool, IQUE and Huper Optik.

3M is a distant second thanks to their international sales in particular Asia and the Pac Rim.

Obviously Solutia and Bekaert have focused on these markets given the opportunity. 3M has had a head start based on their subs throughout the region and Sumitomo 3M.

But similar to the USA. 3M is at a disadvantage in their portfolio. They lose compared to superior films and since a major portion of their film portfolio is made by another company they have very little capability to improve their performance.

This is all wonderful talking points at dealer meetings to stir up pride and tribal thinking but here's the real deal.

Winning or losing is local. You have to be in front of a customer making your best case.

If you are 3M you talk up the brand.

If you compete against them you educate your prospect about NFRC ratings, testing and appearance and you should seldom lose.

Substance over logo. Value over talk.

Why?

Because despite what some people may like to believe consumers are much smarter than they have ever been before.

The folks in China will figure it out once they get their hands on better solutions. Then we have to hope they buy it rather than trying to knock them off!

I do agree with you Mike that winning and losing is local. You seem to be doing ok in your area, and that is great. However, you cannot universalize that to what is happening elsewhere. All I can say is that we will have to agree to disagree. I don't want to argue with you as I am not nearly as deeply vested in my position as you are in yours. Anyway, hope all is well with you. Always a pleasure hearing from you. :lol2

3MFAN · March 17, 2011

As 3M looses more and more market share by the day, they either don't have much reguard for the future of their film products or someone has fallen asleep at the wheel. More than ever the customer has become better informed about the "blind" items they purchase and forums just like this one help consumers weed through tricky marketing BS. Maybe that has something to do with the ones seeing increased market share ?

Tom, I am not looking to get into a back and forth here, but your info is just incorrect. The actual facts are that 3M now sells more window film than anyone in the world. That does not include tape, vinyl, etc. That is just window film. They took over this #1 position from CPFilms based on the latest data. 3M is actually growing their market share in both North America and globally. I personally don't care what film you sell or what your feelings are about 3M. I am not trying to win you over to 3M in any way. I just wanted to clarify the facts as what you stated is wrong. Check with your manufacturer and ask. If they are truthful, they will have to admit that this is true as the data is out there for all the large companies.

As 3M looses more and more market share by the day,Tom how much of the window film market share has 3M lost ....? they either don't have much reguard for the future of their film products or someone has fallen asleep at the wheel. Why do you think this.....? More than ever the customer has become better informed about the "blind" items they purchase and forums just like this one help consumers weed through tricky marketing BS. Maybe that has something to do with the ones seeing increased market share ?

Im guessing you are a MMM dealer or the like, so if you have your reps ear ask him/her to share the national year over year #s for the last few.

I can only speak for the west coast as far as actual data. I do not feel comfortable sharing this data openly on the forum, but I can say that the growth was extremely large in 2010 and has been even larger thus far in 2011. Call me if you would like and I will speak with you off line. Again, not trying to start an argument, just trying to clarify some facts.

The growth was not large in 2010 or they would not have moved Charlie Calisto out of his position because of lack of growth, they would have given him a big bonus and thanked him.

PJF · March 17, 2011

The growth was not large in 2010 or they would not have moved Charlie Calisto out of his position because of lack of growth, they would have given him a big bonus and thanked him.

I have way too much respect for Charlie to discuss him on this forum, but I will say that you should have a much better understanding of the situation before making a comment like that. That is just plain irresponsible.

PJF · March 17, 2011

how can you correct someone to being incorrect ..and not be able to show the facts that you speak of....are we suppose to just take your word for it.?
like I am going to call my rep and they are going to day...ya...3m sells more film then anyone in the world...ok.....right..

I said that you can call me if you would like to discuss particulars. I started to post the actual data from the west coast, but then decided against it. I am more that happy to talk offline about it. My cell phone # is below. The data regarding the sales is available publicly if you care to do the research.

March 17, 2011

As 3M looses more and more market share by the day,Tom how much of the window film market share has 3M lost ....? they either don't have much reguard for the future of their film products or someone has fallen asleep at the wheel. Why do you think this.....? More than ever the customer has become better informed about the "blind" items they purchase and forums just like this one help consumers weed through tricky marketing BS. Maybe that has something to do with the ones seeing increased market share ?

Im guessing you are a MMM dealer or the like, so if you have your reps ear ask him/her to share the national year over year #s for the last few.

Yea something like that, i have put up some 3M film over the years, and you forgot to answer my 2nd qwestion........?

PJF, can you see if you could find out who my rep is and the phone # and PM it to me .......... :lol2

TomTint · March 17, 2011

As 3M looses more and more market share by the day,Tom how much of the window film market share has 3M lost ....? they either don't have much reguard for the future of their film products or someone has fallen asleep at the wheel. Why do you think this.....? More than ever the customer has become better informed about the "blind" items they purchase and forums just like this one help consumers weed through tricky marketing BS. Maybe that has something to do with the ones seeing increased market share ?

Im guessing you are a MMM dealer or the like, so if you have your reps ear ask him/her to share the national year over year #s for the last few.

Yea something like that, i have put up some 3M film over the years, and you forgot to answer my 2nd qwestion........?

PJF, can you see if you could find out who my rep is and the phone # and PM it to me ..........

Why do I think that...... I do not get paid to run the marketing program at MMM. Nor do I pretend to have the ability to. But one thing that is for certain is that even if you are growing as a whole in a certain segment but loosing overall market share, that is a recipe for a long slow bleed. One has to wonder what the objective is for the future.