ex 3M dealer still a fan

[PJF]

Why do I think that...... I do not get paid to run the marketing program at MMM. Nor do I pretend to have the ability to. But one thing that is for certain is that even if you are growing as a whole in a certain segment but loosing overall market share, that is a recipe for a long slow bleed. One has to wonder what the objective is for the future.

Let me start by saying that I am not even sure that I agree that 3M has lost any market share. To who? I know most of the other major manufacturers actual sales are down over the past 2 years. I also know that 3M's overall window film sales have increased. So, if almost every top manufacturer's sales are down and 3M's are up, how did they lose market share?

In addition, I do not agree with your statement above that "loosing overall market share, that is a recipe for a long slow bleed". It would be dependent upon another competitor or competitors continuing to procure market share from 3M and grow their business. Whenever a group of new companies enter a marketplace, sales creep to those entities is inevitable in the short term. In many cases, sales creep is reversed after the initial novelty of the new products is exhausted. If the new products are successful in attaining a degree of longevity, they typically attain that by eroding market from the bottom. An area that 3M does not play. So, typically the bottom tier will cannibalize themselves with little net effect to the companies at the top long term. Companies at the top typically wage a battle all their own for the largest part of the pie and their portion of it. Of the companies at the top, 3M is the only company increasing investment and growing their net business. Others at the top have seen an erosion of their net business and actually have had decreasing sales.

Finally, a small math example to show that small market erosion if the pie is growing will not kill a company. If the market in 2010 was $200 million in the United States and a company had a 25% market share, their top line would be $50 million. If the market grew to $250 million by 2013 and the company lost 2% market share and slipped to 23%, their top line sales would have grown to $57.5 million. A 15% growth in their business. If you assume the market will continue to grow or that the market erosion will either reverse or cease, a company can continue to grow and do quite well. If the market grows stagnant, typically the companies that will suffer the most will be the lower tier players as people move to the security of a major supplier. In either situation, 3M comes out in good shape if they stick to their current plan of focus and investment.

I will again state that I am not a shill for 3M in the same way that I was not for CPFilms when I was affiliated with them. I am just pointing out some facts when I see erroneous information being disseminated.

[TintJunkie]

Of the companies at the top, 3M is the only company increasing investment and growing their net business. Others at the top have seen an erosion of their net business and actually have had decreasing sales.

Are you sure about that? CommonWealth seems to be expanding in enormously.

It my opinion that TintDude represents most of the window film dealers (given the total number of members...and this is a relatively generic observation), but yet only a handful on this site carry 3M. That being said, look at how the 3M threads always turn out. Hardly anyone has anything positive to say about the product. I have my criticisms about my own product, and so do many others, but the 3M users have yet to admit the misleading information of 3M. How can a 3M dealer worth their salt deny it when it is in print?

[PJF]

Of the companies at the top, 3M is the only company increasing investment and growing their net business. Others at the top have seen an erosion of their net business and actually have had decreasing sales.

Are you sure about that? CommonWealth seems to be expanding in enormously.

It my opinion that TintDude represents most of the window film dealers (given the total number of members...and this is a relatively generic observation), but yet only a handful on this site carry 3M. That being said, look at how the 3M threads always turn out. Hardly anyone has anything positive to say about the product. I have my criticisms about my own product, and so do many others, but the 3M users have yet to admit the misleading information of 3M. How can a 3M dealer worth their salt deny it when it is in print?

I agree with you. If you notice from my initial post, I said "Of the companies at the top, 3M is the only company increasing investment and growing their net business". Commonwealth was a lower tier company several years ago but they are making great strides. I think what Steve has done there has been pretty impressive. Commonwealth established themselves against the 2nd and 3rd tier companies in the industry and are now beginning to make moves into the top tier of the industry by taking business from some companies that lost focus and are falling out of the top tier.

As far as the threads on this forum going anti-3M, I agree with you. I know many on this site that use 3M but keep quiet about it as they know that this forum is very anti-3M and they will catch a bunch of grief about it. Also, although I think TintDude is a great assembly of installers, it does not represent most of the industry even when just speaking about the US. There are nearly 11,000 installation companies in the US and this forum has just over 6300. A great representation for sure, but not "most" of the window film dealers.

I am not even going to address the misleading information accusation. There are two sides to that story.

[VIP tint + glass]

i dont know why people want to work so hard to convince their customers against 3M. my business sense may be off, but if they want it. why not just sell it to them?

i feel like the anti 3M people are fighting a losing battle. if and if it ever gets out in the general public that 3M is in fact inferior, i wont offer it.

i deal mainly in auto but the goal is all the same, get the job.

"ooh how much is the 3M?" "is that the price for the 3M?" and i dont even mention it right off the bat.

on residential put out all the samples, just see what they grab first.

[Fiveofeen]

There are some pretty darn bold statements in this thread.

My personal opinion, don't post on TD unless you plan to back that claim up.

[PJF]

There are some pretty darn bold statements in this thread.

My personal opinion, don't post on TD unless you plan to back that claim up.

I hope you don't feel that I have been out of line Tim. I do have respect for you and I am just trying to make sure that people have the correct info from my end. If I posted something you do not agree with, please let me know and I will be glad to share with you offline the info that I have. You know my number Tim, so if that comment was directed at me, give me a call. It would be great to speak with you. We still need tp grab that cup of coffee sometime.

[TintJunkie]

I am not even going to address the misleading information accusation. There are two sides to that story.

If a truck was advertised that it had a payload of x amount, and could tow x amount as a half ton truck at x base price (and they are showing a base model truck with a V8/2wd), and you went to purchase that truck. When you get there, you find that that truck will only do it with x package installed for x amount of dollars more, and have 4wd, wouldnt you feel mislead?

Isnt it misleading to put a film on a spec chart that is missing the SR coat, adhesive, and liner...when all other mfg's have a complete sample?

Dont you feel its misleading to state a certain film rejects 97% IR, but only at a certain spectrum (even though it is noted, customers dont know what that means)?

If 3M decides to change those two things, I will shut up about it. Until then, the customer should know whats missing, and what certain numbers mean.

i dont know why people want to work so hard to convince their customers against 3M. my business sense may be off, but if they want it. why not just sell it to them?

i feel like the anti 3M people are fighting a losing battle. if and if it ever gets out in the general public that 3M is in fact inferior, i wont offer it.

i deal mainly in auto but the goal is all the same, get the job.

"ooh how much is the 3M?" "is that the price for the 3M?" and i dont even mention it right off the bat.

on residential put out all the samples, just see what they grab first.

I cant sell someone something that isnt going to do what it claims, and doesnt look as it is shown. I can do neat tricks with my film against 3M by using a scrub pad to try and mislead the customer to believing the color rubs off easily, but in fact, there is no scratch coat on the sample, so I would be guilty of misleading the customer.

I will still lose to a 3M dealer from time to time, but lets not suggest that consumers are dumb. Most want to know what they are really getting before they sign a check, even if there are no labels/names attached.

[3MFAN]

In closing, I do not want to get into a back and forth on this topic, so this is my last post on this thread. I am just trying to get some people to not be so single minded regarding the 3M brand. I know that it is the popular thing to do to bash 3M on this forum, but I encourage you to talk to all legitimate manufacturers and make up your own mind on what product suits you. My advice that I have shared here before is to find a quality product backed by top shelf support and service. It is up to you to determine what product checks those boxes for you in your geographic area of the country.

Good luck everyone. Go out and crush it in 2011! Opportunity is all around us.

[Fiveofeen]

No worries PJF I should follow my own advice and not post in a thread that really has nothing to do with me. All I can do is help stir the you know what and thats not right.

No one is sharing their numbers, we all speculate we are on top or near the top etc... I don't want to see anyones info and all I need to worry about is how I'm doing at my job and I'll congratulate anyone finding success currently. Regardless of what they sell or who they work for.

Maybe a beer is a better option... I know I could use one! This is a tough thread and I know I'd be the guy on here defending my employer too.

[VIP tint + glass]

again doing a lot of extra stuff to try and steer them away from 3M. if you had it to begin with you could just say "i can do it for ______, and i have an appointment available as close as _____"

i sell 3M to a lot of clients who ask for it. those that dont normally make the choice of our other film strictly because of price and that the warranty of other films i feel is superior than 3M. if the warranty process was the same for 3M as other manu's id sell a lot more of it. but when poeple ask me about which one i would prefer i tell them the truth. but i dont ever bad mouth another dealer or another film. and this goes for auto and flat glass.

in every other type of business you would automatically think, "hey people like this brand, ill carry it" but for some reason idk why people here want to not sell it.

if you had a stereo shop would you sell pioneer and sony? even if you dont like the brands you should still at least carry it.