global window films

[Fiveofeen]

Cool thread! What kind of metalizing capabilities does Garware have?

[EWF]

Cool thread! What kind of metalizing capabilities does Garware have?

It's not quite as advanced as what you guys have. They have a traditional vacuum metalizer that is perfectly suited for the products that are sold under the Global brand name in the USA. They don't do any sputtering, as you and small list of others are able to - but there are no Sputtered Films presently in the Global line.

About sputtering:

As you know, there are but a few window film companies that have this capability. But unlike dying the film, sputtering is not outsourced to a competitor. It is outsourced to companies that specialize in metalizing (outside of the solar control industry) and their work is superb. By way of example, practically all of the NiChrome derived films on the market are metalized by only 1-2 companies in the USA.

The primary products that Global sells in the US are the QD/QDP & CHP. None of them require advanced metalization.

-Howard

[vquestfilms.com]

Is it true that PVD yields a thicker (more dense) coating due to the deposition being controlled by the speed of the film through the chamber as compared to sputtering?

[EWF]

Hi Rob,

Sputtering has two significant advantages over PVD.

#1 - The first is the uniformity of the coating. Sputtering is the process used in the semiconductor industry, where control of the deposition thickness can be set literally down to the atomic level. As you mention, PVD deposition thickness is primarily controlled by line speed which is nowhere near as precise.

#2 - Sputtering greatly expands the list of metals and other materials you can deposit. PVD is quite limited (usually to just aluminum) whereas Sputtering will allow you to deposit Copper, Nickel, Chromium among other things. The materials used in films like Huper can not be deposited with PVD.

In answer to your question: In very general terms, yes. But because sputtering gives you complete control, it is physically possible to deposit a coating that is thicker or thinner than a PVD coating.

This being said, none of the Global Automotive Films require sputtering. They are traditional NR dyed polyester films or in the case of CHP, are traditional dyed/metal hybrids which use the tried and true PVD aluminum coating which as been around for decades.

I am a big fan of Sputtered Flat Glass Films, but Sputtered Auto Films have proven to be a huge headache for EWF over the years. The incidence of residual moisture (particularly during this time of the year) result in an uncomfortable number of customer complaints. Without question, there are experienced installers who have adopted their installation methods to accommodate Sputtered Auto Films. It requires a very thorough effort to evacuate all the application moisture, as whatever is left behind will condense and fog up.

Only our EWF Auto All Metal is sputtered. If you are considering using it (or any brand of Sputtered Auto Film), eat your Wheaties, use the right squeegee and go over that window at least 10x.

-Howard

[EWF]

Hi Rob,

I have a question for you. I have never been able to figure this one out:

There are quite a few ceramic films on the market which are advertised as "dye free". As I understand it, the ceramic coating consists of sputtered TiN (Titanium Nitride). In the absence of any dyes, why are all of these products not the exact same color? What accounts for the different hues and color tones we see within the same product lines from the same manufacturer and from manufacturer to manufacturer?

By way of example, consider sputtered NiChrome Films. These films are the same exact color no matter who you buy them from. The different VLTs are the same color and only the density itself varies.

But in the case of the dye-free ceramics, how do they vary the color if there is nothing else deposited on the film but the sputtered TiN particle? The only thing I can think of is that they are sputtering other metals into the film as well to adjust the color. For example, adding some sputtered aluminum would add more blue. Nickel and/or Chromium would add an amber tone. Perhaps some copper to add some bronze hues.

If it's not dye (I take their word for it) what are they adding to adjust the color?

-Howard

[vquestfilms.com]

Hi Rob,

Sputtering has two significant advantages over PVD.

#1 - The first is the uniformity of the coating. Sputtering is the process used in the semiconductor industry, where control of the deposition thickness can be set literally down to the atomic level. As you mention, PVD deposition thickness is primarily controlled by line speed which is nowhere near as precise.

#2 - Sputtering greatly expands the list of metals and other materials you can deposit. PVD is quite limited (usually to just aluminum) whereas Sputtering will allow you to deposit Copper, Nickel, Chromium among other things. The materials used in films like Huper can not be deposited with PVD.

In answer to your question: In very general terms, yes. But because sputtering gives you complete control, it is physically possible to deposit a coating that is thicker or thinner than a PVD coating.

This being said, none of the Global Automotive Films require sputtering. They are traditional NR dyed polyester films or in the case of CHP, are traditional dyed/metal hybrids which use the tried and true PVD aluminum coating which as been around for decades.

I am a big fan of Sputtered Flat Glass Films, but Sputtered Auto Films have proven to be a huge headache for EWF over the years. The incidence of residual moisture (particularly during this time of the year) result in an uncomfortable number of customer complaints. Without question, there are experienced installers who have adopted their installation methods to accommodate Sputtered Auto Films. It requires a very thorough effort to evacuate all the application moisture, as whatever is left behind will condense and fog up.

Only our EWF Auto All Metal is sputtered. If you are considering using it (or any brand of Sputtered Auto Film), eat your Wheaties, use the right squeegee and go over that window at least 10x.

-Howard

I wanted to see if I was still correct in my thinking because it has been my experience that PVD is a cheaper process (thus the lower film cost to dealers) and it is limited to a few metals that can be successfully vapor deposited onto substrate. But back to optics which is what I jumped into the discussion to address...

It would seem to reason that if larger particles and thicker coatings contribute to poorer optical quality than say smaller particles and uniform thinner coatings, then it would also seem logical that sputtered films with smaller particles just by nature of process and size would be optically better than VPD films. Again, that would be if all other components (PET, Adhesive, SR Coat) were equal.

I bring it all up because sometimes you will see or hear a statement that such n such film is optically superior, better, the best, etc... and although everyone is entitled to their opinion it begs to be asked "What are you comparing it too? Is it dyed compared to VPD, VPD compared to sputtered?" The ingredients, and in this case the method of coating, yields different results.

Price is also affected by process. Anyone can brag that they carry the cheapest film but how are they producing it? VPD in this case is straightforward and a simple process compared to sputtering but the ability to produce a thin coatings in a large variety of metals or ceramics and thus better optics a result costs more money. So the question to dealers is "what result do you want to pay for?"

I am impressed with the vertical integration that Garware has, it affords them a lot of control. However, lack of in-house sputtering puts them at a disadvantage in some product technologies.

I've seen what can be done with sputtering and it is pretty impressive. I prefer it as well. Cross-stacking 1 atom thick layers of material and creating low reflective surfaces that can perform as well as some of the more reflective products gives options that we did not have many years ago.

btw- 3 squeegee passes on a sputtered metal by an experienced installer with the right tool and technique will usually get the job done just right.

[vquestfilms.com]

There are quite a few ceramic films on the market which are advertised as "dye free".

Really? I know Huper advertises dye-free ceramic, who else does?

Hi Rob,

In the absence of any dyes, why are all of these products not the exact same color? What accounts for the different hues and color tones we see within the same product lines from the same manufacturer and from manufacturer to manufacturer?

Different ceramics are used from MFG to MFG. Some products have stacked layers and others do not. These things can affect hue and color.

If it's not dye (I take their word for it) what are they adding to adjust the color?

-Howard

Howard,

I think it is safe to assume that you have access to legal minds. If a company marketed a product as "dye-free" and in actuality it was not, what do you suppose would happen?

[EWF]

Hi Rob,

Panorama HiLite is not a dyed film. T Gordon - am I correct?

Within the Huper Ceramic Line, there are films of various color hues. I was just curious how they were able to do that without dye or metal. Perhaps they do use materials other than TiN. That would certainly explain it.

Does anyone know what other ceramic materials are used in window films? There may well be others. TiN is just the only one I am familiar with.

-Howard

[vquestfilms.com]

Hi Rob,

Panorama HiLite is not a dyed film. T Gordon - am I correct?

-Howard

Panorama HiLite is not a ceramic film. Probably not dyed but the question would be "Do they advertise non-dyed?"

[EWF]

Panorama HiLite is not a ceramic film. Probably not dyed but the question would be "Do they advertise non-dyed?"

It must be an all metal then. That is my understanding as well - dye free.

I always hear it spoken of as a "dye free" film. I have not seen all of their literature. If it is not specifically advertised as such, then I should not have used the word advertised. T-Gordon might be able the weigh in on that as well.

What about the varying color hues within the Huper line? It's a purely academic question. Huper makes a superb product.

-Howard