IR film Vs Ceramic?

Barrerasr81 · August 13, 2016

thanks for all the info fat cat. I really apprieciate it.

Thanks for the info fat cat. what is ITO and ATO.

ITO refers to Indium Tin Oxide

ATO refers to Antimony Tin Oxide

TiN refers to Titanium Nitride

Here's the science:

Given the same heat reduction, ITO will offer the highest VLT.

Given the same heat reduction, ATO is the cheapest technolog. ITO and TiN are more expensive.

Roach · August 13, 2016

Thanks for the info fat cat. what is ITO and ATO. Well i guess i will atleast get to see one of the best laminating line. Any idea of any other manufacturers that show more of the process?

This was on the show - How It's Made - and shown I think about 2 yrs ago.... short segment, but still gives some idea of the process. There is a post about it somewhere here.....

Here is the thread about it....

Tintguy1980 · August 13, 2016

On 8/12/2016 at 11:28 PM, Barrerasr81 said:

Thanks for the info fat cat. what is ITO and ATO. Well i guess i will atleast get to see one of the best laminating line. Any idea of any other manufacturers that show more of the process?

😁

Tintguy1980 · August 13, 2016

On 8/12/2016 at 11:02 PM, fat cat said:

On 8/12/2016 at 12:10 AM, Barrerasr81 said:

Is there a difference between a "IR film" and a "True Ceramic film" and which do you prefer and why?

Strictly speaking, IR films includes TiN Ceramics, Carbon, ITO and ATO films.

Technologically, they are usually less reflective and offer better heat reduction than HP-type of autotints.

Most importantly, they will not interfere with GPS or radio signals unless metals are added.

Some hybrid products in the market uses ITO, TiN with some sputtered silver.

Thanks for the inclusion of metallized film products. It seems with all the hype over IR this ceramic that, metallized films do not get mentioned as an IR film.

TomTint · August 13, 2016

Film suppliers are ALWAYS looking to separate themselves from the pack. The marketing departments look for anything they can exploit ( weather it is a real value or not ) to subliminally suggest they are some how superior than the next guy. .. Think "on angle" , "nano" , "97% IR" , other names like Ultra, Night Vision ... ( as if you can actually see out of it at night ) SMH. .. .. All of this is marketing spin and people buy sizzle not bacon. Buyer beware , and if I can offer any suggestion it is to know exactly how your competition markets itself and have data to back up your product offerings. A quick example, .. We walked into a small glass sunroom last week and the Prestige salesman was there before us .. He was nice enough to leave his PR 40,50,60 70 samples for the customer to look at. .. Obviously he had been pushing the IR BS to the customer because it was one of the first things he asked about. I then presented him the NFRC opinion of IR and how it pertains to TSER. .. Long story short, we installed Silver 15 to 12 skylights and the customer was thrilled with the look and performance. We were also 140.00 cheaper than any of the PR offerings Win/win.

Tintguy1980 · August 13, 2016

:bingothis

On 8/13/2016 at 7:56 AM, TomTint said:

Film suppliers are ALWAYS looking to separate themselves from the pack. The marketing departments look for anything they can exploit ( weather it is a real value or not ) to subliminally suggest they are some how superior than the next guy. .. Think "on angle" , "nano" , "97% IR" , other names like Ultra, Night Vision ... ( as if you can actually see out of it at night ) SMH. .. .. All of this is marketing spin and people buy sizzle not bacon. Buyer beware , and if I can offer any suggestion it is to know exactly how your competition markets itself and have data to back up your product offerings. A quick example, .. We walked into a small glass sunroom last week and the Prestige salesman was there before us .. He was nice enough to leave his PR 40,50,60 70 samples for the customer to look at. .. Obviously he had been pushing the IR BS to the customer because it was one of the first things he asked about. I then presented him the NFRC opinion of IR and how it pertains to TSER. .. Long story short, we installed Silver 15 to 12 skylights and the customer was thrilled with the look and performance. We were also 140.00 cheaper than any of the PR offerings Win/win.

On another note but more toward efficient reduction of SHGC, I spoke with a client about his storm door facing East. He was telling how hot his new (brown) metal door was getting and called the competing shop to have film applied. I was heading to an estimate and committed to swing by his place to see what was applied because the homeowner was now saying his door was getting even hotter. The comp had applied a residential film product with a solar reflectance of 22% and an absorption in the mid-50's.

I pointed those numbers out and spoke of a dual reflective that carries a solar reflectance of 48% with an absorption of 41 and how the reflectance might be less acceptable by most homeowners yet, much more efficient at keeping the heat out. I sell reflective more than any other film for structures with glass using AC to cool.

Edit: Cars are different in that they have the capacity to decrease heat transfer from high absorbance through increased wind speed across the glass when the car is in motion. Metallized and metallized hybrids would be more efficient in this scenario as well but, reflective film use is limited for safety reasons.

TomTint · August 13, 2016

Film suppliers are ALWAYS looking to separate themselves from the pack. The marketing departments look for anything they can exploit ( weather it is a real value or not ) to subliminally suggest they are some how superior than the next guy. .. Think "on angle" , "nano" , "97% IR" , other names like Ultra, Night Vision ... ( as if you can actually see out of it at night ) SMH. .. .. All of this is marketing spin and people buy sizzle not bacon. Buyer beware , and if I can offer any suggestion it is to know exactly how your competition markets itself and have data to back up your product offerings. A quick example, .. We walked into a small glass sunroom last week and the Prestige salesman was there before us .. He was nice enough to leave his PR 40,50,60 70 samples for the customer to look at. .. Obviously he had been pushing the IR BS to the customer because it was one of the first things he asked about. I then presented him the NFRC opinion of IR and how it pertains to TSER. .. Long story short, we installed Silver 15 to 12 skylights and the customer was thrilled with the look and performance. We were also 140.00 cheaper than any of the PR offerings Win/win.

On another note but more toward efficient reduction of SHGC, I spoke with a client about his storm door facing East. He was telling how hot his new (brown) metal door was getting and called the competing shop to have film applied. I was heading to an estimate and committed to swing by his place to see what was applied because the homeowner was now saying his door was getting even hotter. The comp had applied a residential film product with a solar reflectance of 22% and an absorption in the mid-50's.

I pointed those numbers out and spoke of a dual reflective that carries a solar reflectance of 48% with an absorption of 41 and how the reflectance might be less acceptable by most homeowners yet, much more efficient at keeping the heat out. The guy was an astute customer and then asked if the reflectivity would impact his grass. Of course I am too honest to tell otherwise and explained there was the risk of browning a small area of grass where the reflection off the door might strike.

I sell reflective more than any other film for structures with glass using AC to cool.

Edit: Cars are different in that they have the capacity to decrease heat transfer from high absorbance through increased wind speed across the glass when the car is in motion. Metallized and metallized hybrids would be more efficient in this scenario as well but, reflective film use is limited for safety reasons.

I have this same issue numerous times.i tell the customer to paint their door white. .02

Counterpart · August 16, 2016

Thanks for the inclusion of metallized film products. It seems with all the hype over IR this ceramic that, metallized films do not get mentioned as an IR film.

Historically speaking, metallized VK-70 was the first who brainwashed the market about their IR reduction capabilities.

Then Huper and 3M Prestige also found it easier to market films with IR-this and IR-that

jaketuckey · August 25, 2016

Thanks for the reply Bham. You have any idea why the Wincos 70 blocks almost the same heat on my box as my FXtreme? I know dynamicappearance says it's not ceramic so what in it makes it blocks as much heat as my Ceramic?
It doesn't have to be a Ceramic to block heat. For example, Huper Optik Performa is a Spectral Filtering Technology film that outperforms Llumar CTX Ceramic at several VLT's. 3M Crystalline outperforms all of the Ceramics and it is a Multi-Layer Optical Technology film. It is just the technology they use in Wincos which is not specifically stated on their website. I checked Lintec's website (maker of Wincos from Japan), they do not specifically state a technology either.

Psssst.....Don't tell anybody, but....

I am a Huper Optik dealer....and I hate to burst your bubble but Autobahn Performa film IS reboxed Llumar CTX Ceramic film.

Just like Xtreme is Llumar as well....and why it fades to clear in 3-4 years.

Eastman Chemical owns Huper, Llumar and a few others.

DynamicATL · August 25, 2016

Thanks for the reply Bham. You have any idea why the Wincos 70 blocks almost the same heat on my box as my FXtreme? I know dynamicappearance says it's not ceramic so what in it makes it blocks as much heat as my Ceramic?
It doesn't have to be a Ceramic to block heat. For example, Huper Optik Performa is a Spectral Filtering Technology film that outperforms Llumar CTX Ceramic at several VLT's. 3M Crystalline outperforms all of the Ceramics and it is a Multi-Layer Optical Technology film. It is just the technology they use in Wincos which is not specifically stated on their website. I checked Lintec's website (maker of Wincos from Japan), they do not specifically state a technology either.

Psssst.....Don't tell anybody, but....

I am a Huper Optik dealer....and I hate to burst your bubble but Autobahn Performa film IS reboxed Llumar CTX Ceramic film.

Just like Xtreme is Llumar as well....and why it fades to clear in 3-4 years.

Eastman Chemical owns Huper, Llumar and a few others.

Psssst...that is not true. I was an Autobahn dealer for 2014/2015 and now Llumar/3M for 2016.

Xtreme and ATC are different films. They have a completely different colors and the current ATC and Xtreme was around before Eastman bought Solutia. Xtreme also had more low angle haze than ATC.
Performa and CTX also are different films. Performa is a Spectral Filtering film with no dye while CTX is a deep dyed Ceramic film. Also completely different color and reflectivity. CTX shrinks easier than Performa.
Autobahn Performa and the Autobahn name is not owned by Huper Optik or Eastman. It is owned by Vision Quest Distributors.
ATC does not fade to clear in 3-4 years. I personally had it installed on the following vehicles...Accord owned for 4 years and friend owned for 3 years with minimal fade, G35 owned for 4 years with zero to minimal fade, A4 for 3 years with zero to minimal fade.